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You say that society cannot blame an inanimate object. I ask why not? This is really the elephant in the room when we discuss the issue of gun violence and societies role in regulating gun ownership. Its hard to really grasp the issue until we look at it honestly. I offered hard data in a previous post outlining the horrors of gun violence. A gun has a single purpose and that purpose is to kill people. You say that a gun is a tool and not an evil piece of metal. I agree that a gun is a tool; however, the idea that it is evil is a very important point for discussion. If a gun has only one function and it is to destroy life; wouldn't that fit the definition of evil? Killing, murder, unjust wars, taking another humans life are society's evils. Wouldn't you say? Then what would you call the tool with a sole purpose of accomplishing this act? I would say that this is at heart of the matter. You can deflect the question by blaming the owner. Your argument goes a long way as most Americans have a strong affinity towards the gun. However, its important to remember this 'tool' is an implement with a singular purpose of snuffing out human life. I would say that the people who choose to call guns evil are well within reason. Now, we should ponder the follow-up question to this line of reasoning, is the human race ready for a world without guns?
Dishing, I will try to my best to answer you honestly.
1) Society cannot blame an inanimate object for anything, because said "evil" inanimate object cannot carry out its "only" purpose without the assistance of a human being that does not value life. Therefore your claim is that society should rid the world of the "evil" inanimate object but not address the "evil" human being incorporating afformentioned "tool" as a means to dispose of life? Anyone else failing to see the logic behind this? You are suggesting removal of the object with no mention of the malfunctioning human commiting the act of using the afformentioned "tool" to take human life.
2) Your elephant in the room wearing an orange speedo is a fairy tale. Society DOES restrict gun ownership as a means of countering gun violence. Reality wake up call, criminals dont follow the laws . That is why they are criminals. Very simple concept, you break the law you are a criminal. Your theory of society without guns hurts us all, yea, you, me, jersey and his family, SWFLgal and her family, Jnanner and crew, bbronston and his brood and so and so on. Why you will ask? Because we all follow the laws and by taking away our guns you will leave us defenseless amongst the very people you fail to address. You see, the criminals that your speedo adorned elephant refuses to address will still be armed to the teeth and will conduct business as usual.
3) You offered personal objection and speculation as you provided no links to the "data" you provided. It comes across as emotional babble drenched in fear with no real data. I in no way am intending to disrespect you, I am simply being honest, as you said it is really hard to grasp if we are not honest. I am being honest.
4) You suggest a gun has a single purpose, I will suggest you are misinformed. You feel, and I assume this is driven by emotion (forgive me if I am incorrect) that a guns sole purpose and design is to take human life. I will argue that a gun is a tool with multiple capabilities depending on the task at hand. Harvesting food, yea millions still hunt for food. I wont speak of the wars because it is not the issue we are discussing. Shooting sports for recreation, target shooting, clays, skeet, IDPA, 3 gun comp, long distance accuracy comp, family activity (great way for parents to bond with thier children while teaching them safety and respect), collecting and on and on. And yes the purpose of self defense to take the life of a dirtbag loser that thinks his life is worth more than mine or my families (please recognize, my weapon will never be drawn in a hostile manner toward a human being unless said human being presents an act of aggression that I cannnot de escalate and disengage from)
5) Taking human life is not societies evil, it is a personal choice that an individual makes to accomplish a selfish, un thought out act of violence to serve his/her own means. Me returning fire is simply a counter measure to permanently stop that threat.
6) You feel that "the gun" as you put it, is the heart of the matter. I will argue bad parenting and lack of resect in the home are the heart of the matter. I am about to crush your theory, I grew up in a very pro gun house. We had 2 gun safes as big as the fridge in your kitchen, a loaded .357 magnum S&W revolver in the drawer of my dad's nightstand, a loaded .380 Barreta semi auto under his mattress and a loaded 12 gauge shotgun in his closet (I wont even start with what was secured in the safes). From a very young age my older brother (43), myself (41) and my snot faced lil bro (37) were ALL exposed to these weapons, we knew where they where, we knew they were loaded and we KNEW they would take life if we touched them. And you know what, not one of us EVER did. From a young age we went to the gun range with my dad and gramps where we were taught to shoot trap and skeet with shotguns, we spent hours on the pistol ranges, and hours on the rifle ranges. We had safety pounded into our heads, we had respect for the weapons we were in contact with, we spent our childhoods at camp in the mountains of New Hampshire hunting and learning the value of life, respecting the animal we hunted for meat. We were taught that hunting was ok as long as no part of that animal went to waste, we had it ingrained in our memories that killing for sport was a waste of life, we also had the strong background of LEO in my family that instilled in us the need to prepare to defend against people that had no regard for life, that they would take your life if you were not willing to defend it. With my background and exposure to ALL of the weapons I have handled in my life, why have I not killed anyone with a gun? Because "the gun" as you put it has more functions than your narrow approach on the subjuct will allow. You say it is the gun, I argue if that were correct I would have turned out much differently and I would have a criminal record and I would have been guilty by association to "the gun". I hope I made my point.
7) You say the people that fear guns are well within reason. I will argue you are misinformed and you fear the wrong things in the world. An object cannot hurt another or take life without the mental capacity of a defective human being making the object perform the act of killing. The individual makes the choice to take life not the gun. So we are going to take out the tool used but not address the defective human that uses it
I will respectfully wait for a response.
Last edited by Old Man Winter; 06-22-2011 at 09:04 PM..
Reason: because I cant type
I guess I've come full circle here (obviously) with regard to personal protection. I can see myself with a taser, (as I stated, I have carried MACE before), and I lack confidence to handle a gun. In an emergent situation I would rather have a weapon which would temporarily disable (as opposed to kill) a predator. I don't think I have the ability to make choices (with limited skills) as to where I would shoot a bullet to disable rather than kill a human being. I really don't know the scope and limitations of taser use but I am open to exploring this issue.
I missed this post when I replied to dishing. Rita, with all due respect, you absolutely, positively should NOT carry a gun. Carrying is a huge responsibility. When you draw that weapon and it goes BANG, there is no turning back. You may have killed your attacker, you may have injured your attacker, you may have killed or injured a civilian, you might have missed and been killed or injured yourself.
A laundry list of possibilities that the shooter will need to deal with legally, emotionally and possibly physically for the rest of your life.
Your indecision as to would you shoot or not, would you shoot to kill vs shoot to injure, do you have the skill etc, and you say all this while not under stress. Adrenaline will take over and reaction time will be quick, you will draw and shoot or you wont. If you draw and dont shoot you failed a cardinal rule of carrying, never draw a weapon you have no intention of using. If you shoot to injure you failed another rule, when you draw a weapon and use it to defend your life against an attacker, the police will arrive to find your weapon secure, you requesting an attorney, and a dead attacker on the ground. There will only be one story and it will be yours. You shoot to injure and you get sued for all you are worth in civil court, you shoot to kill and the police return your carry weapon after it is deemed a clean shoot.
All of your indecision is altered with proper training and attaining the skillset needed, both mentally and physically.
(Doing my best Darth Vader Impression)
Rita, come with me to the dark side. Use the force. Let me complete your training.......
Dishing, I will try to my best to answer you honestly.
1) Society cannot blame an inanimate object for anything, because said "evil" inanimate object cannot carry out its "only" purpose without the assistance of a human being that does not value life. Therefore your claim is that society should rid the world of the "evil" inanimate object but not address the "evil" human being incorporating afformentioned "tool" as a means to dispose of life? Anyone else failing to see the logic behind this? You are suggesting removal of the object with no mention of the malfunctioning human commiting the act of using the afformentioned "tool" to take human life.
2) Your elephant in the room wearing an orange speedo is a fairy tale. Society DOES restrict gun ownership as a means of countering gun violence. Reality wake up call, criminals dont follow the laws . That is why they are criminals. Very simple concept, you break the law you are a criminal. Your theory of society without guns hurts us all, yea, you, me, jersey and his family, SWFLgal and her family, Jnanner and crew, bbronston and his brood and so and so on. Why you will ask? Because we all follow the laws and by taking away our guns you will leave us defenseless amongst the very people you fail to address. You see, the criminals that your speedo adorned elephant refuses to address will still be armed to the teeth and will conduct business as usual.
3) You offered personal objection and speculation as you provided no links to the "data" you provided. It comes across as emotional babble drenched in fear with no real data. I in no way am intending to disrespect you, I am simply being honest, as you said it is really hard to grasp if we are not honest. I am being honest.
4) You suggest a gun has a single purpose, I will suggest you are misinformed. You feel, and I assume this is driven by emotion (forgive me if I am incorrect) that a guns sole purpose and design is to take human life. I will argue that a gun is a tool with multiple capabilities depending on the task at hand. Harvesting food, yea millions still hunt for food. I wont speak of the wars because it is not the issue we are discussing. Shooting sports for recreation, target shooting, clays, skeet, IDPA, 3 gun comp, long distance accuracy comp, family activity (great way for parents to bond with thier children while teaching them safety and respect), collecting and on and on. And yes the purpose of self defense to take the life of a dirtbag loser that thinks his life is worth more than mine or my families (please recognize, my weapon will never be drawn in a hostile manner toward a human being unless said human being presents an act of aggression that I cannnot de escalate and disengage from)
5) Taking human life is not societies evil, it is a personal choice that an individual makes to accomplish a selfish, un thought out act of violence to serve his/her own means. Me returning fire is simply a counter measure to permanently stop that threat.
6) You feel that "the gun" as you put it, is the heart of the matter. I will argue bad parenting and lack of resect in the home are the heart of the matter. I am about to crush your theory, I grew up in a very pro gun house. We had 2 gun safes as big as the fridge in your kitchen, a loaded .357 magnum S&W revolver in the drawer of my dad's nightstand, a loaded .380 Barreta semi auto under his mattress and a loaded 12 gauge shotgun in his closet (I wont even start with what was secured in the safes). From a very young age my older brother (43), myself (41) and my snot faced lil bro (37) were ALL exposed to these weapons, we knew where they where, we knew they were loaded and we KNEW they would take life if we touched them. And you know what, not one of us EVER did. From a young age we went to the gun range with my dad and gramps where we were taught to shoot trap and skeet with shotguns, we spent hours on the pistol ranges, and hours on the rifle ranges. We had safety pounded into our heads, we had respect for the weapons we were in contact with, we spent our childhoods at camp in the mountains of New Hampshire hunting and learning the value of life, respecting the animal we hunted for meat. We were taught that hunting was ok as long as no part of that animal went to waste, we had it ingrained in our memories that killing for sport was a waste of life, we also had the strong background of LEO in my family that instilled in us the need to prepare to defend against people that had no regard for life, that they would take your life if you were not willing to defend it. With my background and exposure to ALL of the weapons I have handled in my life, why have I not killed anyone with a gun? Because "the gun" as you put it has more functions than your narrow approach on the subjuct will allow. You say it is the gun, I argue if that were correct I would have turned out much differently and I would have a criminal record and I would have been guilty by association to "the gun". I hope I made my point.
7) You say the people that fear guns are well within reason. I will argue you are misinformed and you fear the wrong things in the world. An object cannot hurt another or take life without the mental capacity of a defective human being making the object perform the act of killing. The individual makes the choice to take life not the gun. So we are going to take out the tool used but not address the defective human that uses it
I will respectfully wait for a response.
I understand you have deep seated belief that the bill of rights bestowed upon you the right of gun ownership. I understand you have a lot of energy invested in defending your right to own guns. I am not proposing taking your perceived (and actual at this time) rights away. I am simply offering an understanding of the gun and the fact that we don’t want to address the concept behind it. I know you might want to dress the elephant in the room in pink Speedos; but he is still here, ever present. Maybe you feel better dressing him pink to deflect the truth of the matter? I don’t blame you. I understand your talking points about target shooting and hunting. However, people shoot at a target to get better at shooting. This doesn't change the fact that a gun is designed to kill. Also, hunting is done by a very small percentage of gun owners and, in case you forgot, hunting is still killing. You made another assertion that a person who commits the murder is at fault and I agree; however, the implement of the evil has to bear responsibility as well. You say you answered honestly, but honesty is a very subjective thing. You claim I am misinformed, and in the hopes of educating me, you fire off a laundry list of ideas that have nothing to do with the cold hard fact central to our discussion. You framed it in the light of if only I wasn't so naive or misinformed. I am a former gun owner, and believe me I understand your vantage point. A gun is designed to kill. Period. I simply offer this understanding as a seed that someday might find root. You are obviously not ready to come to grips with this simple truth. Finally, you dismissed my data as some sort of emotional rambling. No offense, the only emotional rambling I see is from a man caught-up in a love affair with his guns. :-) Be well Old Man Winter.
They are just ideas. Don't take it personally. peace
I dont take things personally, and have no love affair with my guns. What I love are my freedoms. Freedoms that the sheep in this country live under every day in complete ignorance as to why they have them. Be well dishing, I meant you no ill will in my previous post.
And they are not ideas, they excuses to push an agenda.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
--Benjamin Franklin--
I dont take things personally, and have no love affair with my guns. What I love are my freedoms. Freedoms that the sheep in this country live under every day in complete ignorance as to why they have them. Be well dishing, I meant you no ill will in my previous post.
And they are not ideas, they excuses to push an agenda.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
--Benjamin Franklin--
True freedom is only found with the liberation of the consciousness.
"AS THE SHADOWS were awakening and a scent of the morn was carried on the breeze,
I saw an eagle descending from the mountain-tops. It came down without a flutter of the wings into the valley, and there disappeared among the shadows of the black mountains. At the end of the day I saw it return again to its abode among the mountain peaks, far away from the strife, the struggle and the jostle of the world.
So is the man who has seen the vision of the Truth, who has, during his strife in the world, established for himself the eternal goal. Though he may wander among the transient things, and lose himself among the shadows, yet all his life will be guided by that goal. As the eagle soars to its abode, so will he soar beyond all sorrows, beyond all fleeting pleasures and passing joys.
The establishment of that eternal goal is of primary importance for one who desires to disentangle himself from all the complications of life -not the goal of another, nor the vision of another, but the goal that is born of his own experience, his own sorrow, suffering, and understanding. Such a goal, when once it is established, will throw light on the confusion of all thought, and thereby make clear the purpose of life.
As a ship that is lost at sea without a compass, so the man without the perception of the goal which is constant and eternal is lost in this world of confusion. As the captain of a ship establishes the destination of his vessel and by the compass is able to guide his course through stormy nights and dark waters, so the man who has knowledge of his goal can guide his life by that compass of understanding.
Because the individual does not know his purpose, he is in a state of uncertainty and chaos. Because the individual has not solved his own problem, the problem of the world has not been solved. The individual problem is the world problem. If an individual is unhappy, discontented, dissatisfied, then the world around him is in sorrow, discontent and ignorance. If the individual has not found his goal, the world will not find its goal. You cannot separate the individual from the world. The world and the individual are one. If the individual problem can be solved by understanding, so can the problem of the world be solved. Before you can give understanding to others you have first to understand for yourself. When you establish the Truth in your heart and mind, there it will abide eternally."
~Krishnamurti
Hmmm...crackhead breaks into your home tonight. The break-in wakes you up suddenly and your heart is pounding as you strain to hear, trying to decide if the terror you are feeling is real or just your imagination. The sounds grow louder and your heart is beating out of your chest. You're not sure what to do but you are scared and you know it is only a matter of moments before this guy is in your room. Scenario #1: you reach for your gun while you tell your wife to call 911. Scenario #2: you quote Krishnamurti and, what...hope to bore him into going straight?
Absurd? Read a paper. It happens often enough to present a real, legitimate danger. With all due respect, you are living in a fantasy world of ideals. Not a bad thing to aspire to but there is a harsh, real world that you are denying. You want to get touchy, feely about how every gun has an awesome and awful potential...well, I agree. But, if there wasn't a need for them, they wouldn't exist in the first place. Now there's a truth.
So it is safe to say that all the *******s wouldn't want us gun toting conservatives to save their lives in the event of them being car jacked, home invaded, robbed, raped, mugged?
Dishing, I respect your entitlement to a different opinion. You did not make personal attacks and I know you believe in your values system. I hope you are always safe and well. I know you dont want me at the mall with your family, rest assured, I am not the only sheepdog out there. Be safe my friend
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. That is why they are criminals. Very simple concept, you break the law you are a criminal. Your theory of society without guns hurts us all, yea, you, me, jersey and his family, SWFLgal and her family, Jnanner and crew, bbronston and his brood and so and so on. Why you will ask? Because we all follow the laws and by taking away our guns you will leave us defenseless amongst the very people you fail to address. You see, the criminals that your speedo adorned elephant refuses to address will still be armed to the teeth and will conduct business as usual.
