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Old 11-12-2018, 02:10 PM
 
7,906 posts, read 4,868,890 times
Reputation: 4101

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gulf coast jon View Post
Good points, but again, the 3 foot elevation thing struck me as a questionable average. Thanks for answering, I see your search result at:

https://www.google.com/search?q=sies...+key+elevation

I think they are talking about Siesta Key Beach, not the homes walking distance away.

My dad chose their home on Siesta Key in 1978, researched the elevation, xeriscaped the property (Siesta key is a mix of turf and less offensive landscaping).

Again, I think your posts are on point. Florida can't by itself solve global climate change, but it can lessen the pollution of its greatest asset.
Wikipedia also says the elevation of Siesta Key is 3 feet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siesta_Key,_Florida

Reading the geography paragraph of the above article, is it possible the elevation provided isn't only land elevation, but includes the part of the ocean within a community's borders in calculating elevation?

The following article says the elevation listed for each city is average elevation, but doesn't discuss whether it is only land elevation, or if average elevation includes the part of the ocean within each community's border. The article says for every foot of sea level rise, the ocean moves inland 300 feet, I guess assuming the beach elevation is a foot or less. It also says the sea level rise could reach a mile inland on tidal rivers. The article also says that the rate of sea level rise, currently 1/8th an inch per year, is doubling every 20 years, not the seven years claimed by Harold Wanless (see post 1).

https://www.heraldtribune.com/news/2...nd-opportunity

In the process of researching the elevation issue, I discovered the following op-ed column written by Wanless in June of 2018. Wanless reiterates the global rate of sea level rise is doubling every 7 or 8 years and the rate of increase currently is 4.6 millimeters, or 0.1811 inches per year. If Wanless is correct, and the doubling rate holds, the sea level rise rate within 8 years will be over a third of an inch per year; within 16 years, it will be 0.72 inches per year; and within 24 years, the sea level rise rate will be close to 1 1/2 inches per year. I didn't try to calculate how much total sea level rise would occur within 25 years, partially because there is a reasonable expectation due to several possible vicious feedback loops that the sea level increase rate actually will accelerate even further.

Indeed, in adjusting the global sea level acceleration rates for southern Florida, Wanless includes an adjustment to factor in the slowing Gulf Stream. As the Gulf Stream slows, less heat will be removed from the waters around Florida, resulting in increased regional thermal expansion of the oceans (and likely in increased atmospheric temperatures and humidity), and an accelerated regional sea level rise rate over the global rate.

So Wanless emphasizes in his op-ed piece that the sea level rise rate in southern Florida is greater than the global average, and the rate is expected to become significantly faster in southern Florida in the future in relation to the rest of the world. Using the conservative federal government global sea rise rates, and adjusting them as described, Wanless says south Floridians should prepare for a minimum of 2.7 to 3.4 feet of sea level rise by 2046, which would greatly impact beaches and other coastal areas.

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/opinion...620-story.html

An important unanswered question is how much a rapid transition away from fossil fuel consumption would reduce the acceleration of sea level rise. Of course, greatly due to the presence of deniers and powerful elected deniers in the U.S., the world has not yet stopped growing fossil fuel consumption, let alone reduced fossil fuel consumption and the resulting greenhouse gas emissions. Also, commonly used projections of sea level rise don't contemplate the impact of vicious feedback loops, such as methane feedback loop described in post 1.

Last edited by WRnative; 11-12-2018 at 03:01 PM..
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Old 11-12-2018, 03:15 PM
 
2,356 posts, read 872,429 times
Reputation: 1636
Many deniers burn less fossil fuels than so called "envrionmentalists".

So, is it more important what one believes, or what one does?

I doubt I'll get a straight answer on that simple query. instead, here comes a page long rant with 20 links attached to distract you all from the fact they are not answering my question. Look for a lot of mean spiritedness, name calling, and vitriol from the unhappy respondants. Try to visualize their facial expressions as they typed their angry replies.
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Old 11-12-2018, 05:27 PM
 
7,906 posts, read 4,868,890 times
Reputation: 4101
Quote:
Originally Posted by beach43ofus View Post
Many deniers burn less fossil fuels than so called "envrionmentalists".

So, is it more important what one believes, or what one does?

I doubt I'll get a straight answer on that simple query. instead, here comes a page long rant with 20 links attached to distract you all from the fact they are not answering my question. Look for a lot of mean spiritedness, name calling, and vitriol from the unhappy respondants. Try to visualize their facial expressions as they typed their angry replies.
Man-made climate change denier hypocrisy, obfuscation and deflection. Obviously, there is no interest among deniers in discussing the accelerating rate of sea level rise in Florida.

Deniers can't handle the empirical evidence and explanatory warnings of scientists. They also repeatedly show no empathy for the degraded environmental legacy that we're in the process of bestowing on future generations.

The only thing that will change the course of Florida and of humanity away from environmental disaster is booting denier politicians out of office, and demanding that all of our leaders concentrate on policies to transition our societies away from fossil fuel consumption.

BTW, I counted three links, not 20, in post 11. At any rate, I guess most deniers, just like the "Denier-in-Chief," take pride in NOT reading.

Last edited by WRnative; 11-12-2018 at 06:04 PM..
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Old 11-12-2018, 06:33 PM
 
Location: ☀️ SWFL ⛱ 🌴
2,427 posts, read 1,665,603 times
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This is an encouraging link on drawing down carbon dioxide, combining it with hydrogen from water to make a liquid fuel. It’s not a total answer, but it’s in the right direction.

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/...utral-science/

This is a good read you might find interesting:

https://www.drawdown.org/the-book


With all the bad news, technological breakthroughs give me a basis for some hope. I’m 15 feet above sea level, I don’t live on the beach.... yet.

Last edited by jean_ji; 11-12-2018 at 06:50 PM..
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Old 11-12-2018, 06:49 PM
 
2,356 posts, read 872,429 times
Reputation: 1636
no answer to my question. Are you too scared to answer?
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Old 11-12-2018, 06:49 PM
 
7,906 posts, read 4,868,890 times
Reputation: 4101
Quote:
Originally Posted by jean_ji View Post
This is an encouraging link on drawing down carbon dioxide, combining it with hydrogen from water to make a liquid fuel. It’s not a total answer, but it’s in the right direction.

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/...utral-science/

This is a good read you might like:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/31624481-drawdown


With all the bad news, the technological breakthroughs glimmers give me some hope. And I’m at 15 feet above sea level. I’m not on the beach.... yet.
Thanks for posting!!! It is vitally important that we develop ways to remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, even though burning this fuel puts the carbon right back in the atmosphere. It's still a vast improvement over burning fossil fuels.

So it is encouraging, but note that a carbon tax (or a subsidy) is required to make the process economically competitive. The U.S. is a long way from the political will to institute a carbon tax, and the carbon tax initiative in Washington state failed.

National and international carbon taxes are an important way to make new technologies economical, at least initially, until economies of scale kick in when they are available. The problem is that if one jurisdiction institutes a carbon tax, its economy may be less competitive than those still using cheaper fossil fuels.

However, consider a state like Florida. If Florida replaced many of its taxes with a carbon tax, its economy may be a big winner. Why? Florida doesn't produce fossil fuels. Contributing to the reduction of carbon dioxide emissions also would help mitigate the massive economic costs facing Florida in coming years due to environmental degradation, whether inundation, more destructive hurricanes, more persistent and severe toxic algal blooms, etc.

Would Floridians trade lower real estate taxes and a more sustainable environment for a carbon tax???
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Old 11-12-2018, 06:58 PM
 
Location: ☀️ SWFL ⛱ 🌴
2,427 posts, read 1,665,603 times
Reputation: 8643
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
Thanks for posting!!! It is vitally important that we develop ways to remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, even though burning this fuel puts the carbon right back in the atmosphere. It's still a vast improvement over burning fossil fuels.

So it is encouraging, but note that a carbon tax (or a subsidy) is required to make the process economically competitive. The U.S. is a long way from the political will to institute a carbon tax, and the carbon tax initiative in Washington state failed.

National and international carbon taxes are an important way to make new technologies economical, at least initially, until economies of scale kick in when they are available. The problem is that if one jurisdiction institutes a carbon tax, its economy may be less competitive than those still using cheaper fossil fuels.

However, consider a state like Florida. If Florida replaced many of its taxes with a carbon tax, its economy may be a big winner. Why? Florida doesn't produce fossil fuels. Contributing to the reduction of carbon dioxide emissions also would help mitigate the massive economic costs facing Florida in coming years due to environmental degradation, whether inundation, more destructive hurricanes, more persistent and severe toxic algal blooms, etc.

Would Floridians trade lower real estate taxes and a more sustainable environment for a carbon tax???
Not likely, at this point. Unless you scuba dive or snorkel to see the reefs, or watch documentaries, bleached coral from acidification is not seen by most people. With the oceans holding >90% of the carbon dioxide, the oceans are taking the brunt of it, heating up more than the atmosphere, but it’s virtually invisible to most people. You may see the effects of carbon dioxide, but you can’t actually “see” it. Until carbon dioxide effects affect the pocketbooks of average people, it won’t be a problem many will know about and therefore will not likely agree to a carbon tax..

Last edited by jean_ji; 11-12-2018 at 07:18 PM..
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Old 11-12-2018, 08:11 PM
 
7,906 posts, read 4,868,890 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beach43ofus View Post
no answer to my question. Are you too scared to answer?
I said what's most important is 1) booting deniers out of political leadership; 2) making certain the remaining leaders adopt policies to facilitate a rapid transition away from the consumption of fossil fuels.

Are you that dense, intoxicated, or whatever, that you don't understand this?
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Old 12-07-2018, 06:23 AM
 
7,906 posts, read 4,868,890 times
Reputation: 4101
See posts 775 and 778 in this thread for discussions of sea level rise projections and why they may be much too conservative.

Florida is turning into an environmental catastrophe
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Old 12-07-2018, 06:40 AM
 
341 posts, read 140,467 times
Reputation: 1272
Florida voters just showed how little they are aware/care about the environment with the 2018 election. Average voter age has a lot to do with their "I won't be here and my kids live somewhere else" attitude.

Sea rise and other climate change effects are a national problem and no Florida governor will risk their neck to make it a state issue.

How will it be fixed? My opinion is that FEMA flood insurance will have the greatest impact. When people who don't live anywhere near the beach get flood insurance bills they cannot afford there will be an awakening nationwide. As more people get hit in the pocketbook with the real results of climate change they start to care suddenly. Up until getting that bill in the mail it's someone else's problem, not theirs. It's affecting many more people now, not just rich people who own beach front properties, it's mom and pop in their homes 50 miles from the beach or river or lake.
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