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On topic of AMAZON being approached to build a city in Manatee County:
I don't know if it's feasible but where those 900-plus acres are is more than close enough to Tampa's areas around Brandon which has attracted large number of IT-like professionals that have relocated to the City such as:
Neilsen
Capital One
JPMorgan Chase
Citibank operations
Aegon
Bankers
Fidelity
Raymond James
TIAA
USAA
FIS Clobal
Depsitory Trust
USF
Tampa General
and too may startups in IT to mention here.
In short, Tampa Bay could be an immediate magnet for relos from the west coast, NYC, and even Austin.
What I'm saying, is that with AMAZON, anything is possible....and they are flexible and unpredictable.
Whoever thought that AMAZON would buy the loser of Whole Foods, then RAISE prices across the board (yep, that happened too!)
For the true record, I lived in the Green Hills area (Nashville), and in Germantown (Memphis) and you are dead wrong about the prevalence of bike riders to work in either city, if that's what you're attempting to assert. In fact it's laughable. Both cities are intrinsically car-centric, decentralized/sprawling metros with the Memphis MSA one of the largest most spread out cities (and flat) in the nation. My real-life experience of living in those cities doesn't remotely coincide with your assertion - not even close.
People and true residents/natives of the South don't give up their freedoms and choices just because some other outsider comes up with something THEY believe as a "sensible alternative"....southerners understand the free market for sure, but they think more of their personal "freedom", and most resent being told what to drive, and how to get around. The South isn't DC, or NewYawk, Chicago, or Boston", and it's certainly not NJ.
Contrary to your belief, I've never seen "many" people riding BIKES to work in Nashville and certainly not Memphis, TN (if that was your assertion). Laughable to me.
I wasn't attempting to assert anything. Nashville did vote down that light rail proposal. Not sure why you highlighted that since it is widely known. You're right, not the best example. Atlanta is seeing a large increase in bike commuters though. https://bikeleague.org/sites/default..._Ride_2016.pdf That is a 331% increase since 2000. There is clearly at least some kind of demand there. Almost every city has seen some kind of increase since 2000. If there was better bike infrastructure, Im sure it would be even greater.
They are both car centric. But people still bike in each. This thread is about the Tampa Bay Area which has actually a decent amount of bike commuters when compared to similar sized metros. https://www.citylab.com/transportati...muters/526923/
Do you not think we should give them the freedom to commute how they wish?
I agree with your last point. Except that no one is really a true resident/native of the south in any of your southern city examples (exception: Memphis possibly). These are all transplant cities with people from all over. They all have varied expectations for how they wish to get around. And many of these city leaders are already proactive about multi modal methods of commuting in an attempt to not limit their freedom of mobility, both transportation wise and economically.
Last edited by kombuchaluchador; 02-25-2019 at 10:01 AM..
Bottom line, many residents (in fact the Majority) in Florida and throughout the South, don't see riding a bike to any destination (work, or carrying groceries on a lousy bicycle) intrinsically more desirable especially when it's 80 to 95 degrees in the blistering sunshine). I didn't see it in Nashville Metro and certainly not majority Minority Memphis where owning a decent vehicle may not have been financially possible heretofore. The poverty rate in Urban Memphis is such that it is a real tangible and demonstrative "achievement" of owning a vehicle....and is far more highly prized that piling on a nasty bus or train.....if you actually examine WHO is "riding a bike to work" in most of these cities, they are NOT minorities seeking to do so - they are white folks who already have one or two cars - if you see a black or minority person in these cities "riding a bike" anywhere, it's because it's their only form of transportation (besides the smelly bus). The same thing is seen in ATLANTA. Many of the black riders of bikes in majority black cities like Atlanta and Memphis are hustlers and dope dealers in key neighborhoods, and the local law enforcement will tell you that.
In Florida, it's unlikely to have an aging or elderly population putting themselves at risk by piling on a bike to go to the doctor or Publix - and hardly public transportation either.....and females are particularly wary for security reasons. You don't see a bunch of women donning those silly-looking velodrome helmets and spandex riding around doing errands, you don't see Hispanics or Blacks doing it either for a variety of socio-cultural reasons - what you do see is some wayward white guy actually putting his life at risk on the inverse diamond of University Parkway and I 75, narrow Tuttle, SR 70, narrow SRQ Main Street and GulfStream/LBK, or worse yet on US41.
Most people realize that driving a car or a big truck is sufficiently dangerous, and in many ways I agree with them.
Bottom line, many residents (in fact the Majority) in Florida and throughout the South, don't see riding a bike to any destination (work, or carrying groceries on a lousy bicycle) intrinsically more desirable especially when it's 80 to 95 degrees in the blistering sunshine). I didn't see it in Nashville Metro and certainly not majority Minority Memphis where owning a decent vehicle may not have been financially possible heretofore. The poverty rate in Urban Memphis is such that it is a real tangible and demonstrative "achievement" of owning a vehicle....and is far more highly prized that piling on a nasty bus or train.....if you actually examine WHO is "riding a bike to work" in most of these cities, they are NOT minorities seeking to do so - they are white folks who already have one or two cars - if you see a black or minority person in these cities "riding a bike" anywhere, it's because it's their only form of transportation (besides the smelly bus). The same thing is seen in ATLANTA. Many of the black riders of bikes in majority black cities like Atlanta and Memphis are hustlers and dope dealers in key neighborhoods, and the local law enforcement will tell you that.
In Florida, it's unlikely to have an aging or elderly population putting themselves at risk by piling on a bike to go to the doctor or Publix - and hardly public transportation either.....and females are particularly wary for security reasons. You don't see a bunch of women donning those silly-looking velodrome helmets and spandex riding around doing errands, you don't see Hispanics or Blacks doing it either for a variety of socio-cultural reasons - what you do see is some wayward white guy actually putting his life at risk on the inverse diamond of University Parkway and I 75, narrow Tuttle, SR 70, narrow SRQ Main Street and GulfStream/LBK, or worse yet on US41.
Most people realize that driving a car or a big truck is sufficiently dangerous, and in many ways I agree with them.
I see where you are coming from. I guess is your argument that we should not build bike infrastructure? Or just that it is less desirable. I see biking as a niche, but that doesn't mean we should at least have something in place for them. Id say biking is less about commuting and mostly about eliminating small car trips, maybe someone wants to get some fresh air on their way to the market, perhaps.
A lot of generalities in some of your statements here. Many of these claims are pretty dubious.
Why do retirees need to be driving to the doctor to make a bike lane worth it? I see plenty of elderly people taking advantage of our bike lanes and sidewalks.
I see women cycling all over. And know several personally who bike around. Especially in St. Pete and yes, Nashville. Again, huge generalization that doesn't do anything to prove the point Im assuming you're making.
Are you against all public transit or just biking? You seem to be talking about a bus or a train but you keep specifically mentioning "biking to work". There is a significant cycling culture in many of these cities. In Nashville there are several bike groups. St Pete is becoming a decent biking community.
Sorry if Im trying to put words in your mouth, Im just wondering what you are arguing so I can better respond.
I'm stating the facts that the vast, huge majority of Florida's present demographic do NOT see, or use bikes as a viable alternative to personal transportation. The same assessment is accurate in places like Nashville, Birmingham, Atlanta, New Orleans, Jackson, Memphis or even Little Rock - also of course in Northport-Sarasota-Manatee, period, full stop.
A similar assessment could be made about whatever variety of "public Transit". It's not widely used by our current demographic.
The vast majority of these residents on public roads are not riding bikes or clamoring for more bikes among vehicular traffic. Most law enforcement agree that most bike traffic integrated with vehicular traffic is generally NOT a good idea on major thoroughfares and even some access roads. Go ask them in the State of Florida. It can be an enormous danger. Most roads are designed for cars and trucks, that's just a fact.
What the hell is "cycling culture"??? recreational? business? personal mobility? Public roads aren't designed for "recreational transportation" - and they shouldn't be - roads are purposeful - to get from point A to point B - really nothing more.
No one refers to truck owners and drivers as participating in "vehicular culture"....or folks that ride the smelly bus as participating in the "mass transit culture".
Most times, bikes and trucks don't mix very well - trucks don't mix well with skateboarders or segways either. The roads are sufficiently dangerous with trucks and motorcycles weaving between traffic and riding in the trucks' blindspots.
What moron thinks it's a good safe idea to ride a bike on US 41, 301, SR 70, SR64, Clark, Fruitville on UNIVERSITY PARKWAY at any point east or west....or especially on roads like Honore through the Meadows for instance?
Of course there are morons all over, such as people walking in the roadway even when a sidewalk exists? or the morons jaywalking across Main Street or North Washington BLVD.
People want to "bike" in order to recreate? FINE, but find a safe path or velodrome. Roads aren't for recreation, which seems to be lost on the morons I see riding in HERDS with no specific purpose or destination especially on roads such as LWR BLVD and many other secondary (and some major) thoroughfares.
The government should not promote moronic and dangerous behavior in the name of "cycling culture", or even combating "global warming" or attempting to shape personal choices for no good reason.
I'm stating the facts that the vast, huge majority of Florida's present demographic do NOT see, or use bikes as a viable alternative to personal transportation. The same assessment is accurate in places like Nashville, Birmingham, Atlanta, New Orleans, Jackson, Memphis or even Little Rock - also of course in Northport-Sarasota-Manatee, period, full stop.
A similar assessment could be made about whatever variety of "public Transit". It's not widely used by our current demographic.
The vast majority of these residents on public roads are not riding bikes or clamoring for more bikes among vehicular traffic. Most law enforcement agree that most bike traffic integrated with vehicular traffic is generally NOT a good idea on major thoroughfares and even some access roads. Go ask them in the State of Florida. It can be an enormous danger. Most roads are designed for cars and trucks, that's just a fact.
What the hell is "cycling culture"??? recreational? business? personal mobility? Public roads aren't designed for "recreational transportation" - and they shouldn't be - roads are purposeful - to get from point A to point B - really nothing more.
No one refers to truck owners and drivers as participating in "vehicular culture"....or folks that ride the smelly bus as participating in the "mass transit culture".
Most times, bikes and trucks don't mix very well - trucks don't mix well with skateboarders or segways either. The roads are sufficiently dangerous with trucks and motorcycles weaving between traffic and riding in the trucks' blindspots.
What moron thinks it's a good safe idea to ride a bike on US 41, 301, SR 70, SR64, Clark, Fruitville on UNIVERSITY PARKWAY at any point east or west....or especially on roads like Honore through the Meadows for instance?
Of course there are morons all over, such as people walking in the roadway even when a sidewalk exists? or the morons jaywalking across Main Street or North Washington BLVD.
People want to "bike" in order to recreate? FINE, but find a safe path or velodrome. Roads aren't for recreation, which seems to be lost on the morons I see riding in HERDS with no specific purpose or destination especially on roads such as LWR BLVD and many other secondary (and some major) thoroughfares.
The government should not promote moronic and dangerous behavior in the name of "cycling culture", or even combating "global warming" or attempting to shape personal choices for no good reason.
They do, it's called "car culture". And I would argue that many of these cities do see it as a viable alternative, as most are trying to incorporate more pedestrian/bike friendly development. The Nashville Yards proposal, for instance does this. Atlanta and their Gulch development as well. Sarasota recently held a talk from a walkability expert:https://www.yourobserver.com/article...anning-lecture The fact that bike lanes even exist is testament to there being some kind of demand for them, correct? All Im saying is that a lot of cities don't seem to agree with you.
This is more an infrastructure problem than anything else. It comes down to whether or not you see bike lanes/multi modal lanes as a net benefit to a city. I do, and many urban planners do as well. You do not. We will probably just disagree. Getting back more on discussion, I could see a company like Amazon, or any company for that matter, looking for a vibrant attractive city to relocate to. It would be pretty attractive to be able to offer a tropical destination to potential new hires for relocation.
This is sort of a chicken and egg argument. If people had a safe alternative to driving. Perhaps they would feel more comfortable doing it. Many already try to do it even with poor bike infrastructure.
Bikes lanes just make financial sense. Bikes cause less wear and tear on roads, leading to less maintenance down the road. And more pedestrian friendly street design is consistently shown to be more financially viable for cities overall. Cars take up a lot of space, parking takes up a lot of space, it makes sense to look for an alternative that doesn't take up as much space.
Then the government should also ban cars, and pedestrians, and people in general. These are all capable of making "moronic" decisions. I see we've turned the corner and are completely getting away from your "freedom" comment, eh?
Luckily no-one ever drives dangerously and our roadways are always extremely safe.
At this point, I would be surprised if we ever get Brightline at all. Im sure there are funding issues. I believe I read somewhere that Rick Scott rejected federal funding for it? Am I wrong in that? Maybe someone can clarify the details.
Here is what most people do not realize when they get upset about state officials not accepting federal money for projects. Many times the federal money is just "part" of the funding and it is dependent on state government to cover the balance. Also, many projects have annual costs associated with them that last forever, so even if the federal government paid 100% of the initial construction costs, the state could be on the hook annually forever.
Once a town or city or even suburb is built out, its impossible to go back and fix it to accommodate multi-model transportation.
It must be done on the front end. We need to set aside more than adequate land for transportation corridors. We need to have huge setbacks to plan for future expansion.
Too late for much of our area West of I-75, but theres still opportunity as we build Eastward, but I'm betting we fail again.
Here's what I see as the future. We must reduce trips and miles traveled. The "last mile" is the most costly leg of any products jouney to a consumer. This is why the postal service is losing so much money. Notice how the new neighborhoods have community mail boxes. Each homeowner, or renter, must stop along a central street in the neighborhood to retrieve the mail...typicall near the entrance.
Now, lets take that to a larger scale. Let's say most everyday items consumer's buy goes to central point that serves a neighborhood. Each homeowner must retrieve their stuff from that central point.
This central point is called "podhouse". Its a huge community mailbox that holds everything from mail to Rx drugs to food, to ice cream. Each pod has 3 compartments, dry good, refigerated good, and frozen goods. The pod is a box that comes out of your "pod slot" and slides into your SUV. Think of the pods used by ups and fedex to load their planes. When you get home, you unload the pod, then replace the pod the next morning into the podhouse to accept future deliveries.
Amazon would deliver to the podhouses, but not to your residence. You would own the space in the pod house, and you would own the pod. You would likely pay the HOA to build and maintain the podhouse.
When you buy larger items, like appliances and furniture, you still have to drive to the store. If you are buying an item that requires affilitated services, like tires, you still have to drive. But, all the trips to the pharmacy, grocery store, liquor store, hardware store, ect. all end. Your just order online from Amazon or any other company who can fullfill the order and deliver to your pod, and that would eliminate Billions of trip and miles driven by American consumers.
Here is what most people do not realize when they get upset about state officials not accepting federal money for projects. Many times the federal money is just "part" of the funding and it is dependent on state government to cover the balance. Also, many projects have annual costs associated with them that last forever, so even if the federal government paid 100% of the initial construction costs, the state could be on the hook annually forever.
You must mean like with the roads, the traffic accidents, the pollution, the horrible "views" and all the rest...yes, I realize that we have to pay for things we get and use.
The bigger question is whether we enjoy that extra hour it takes to get to the airport in busy times....which is only going to get much worse.
Even in the crazy crowded bay area you can take the BART all the way to the airport(s).
This state is gonna be on the hook all right...on the hook for a declining quality of life largely due to car culture. All that most people need to do is open their doors and windows...ah, the sound of traffic and then the sound of someone being scraped up off the roads (usually many times a day)...sirens!
Acting as if we are at "par" with the existing system is where you go wrong. No one is suggesting giving up the car, but things will improve when self-driving electric machines rule the road in 50 years. It won't solve every problem, but it will help some of them.
Remember, it takes decades to fully build out proper transportation. Where are the plans for some light rail? Where are the plans for high speed ferries to get to Tampa and the Airport?
I noticed that SRQ is having a meeting about transportation, the ad says "Bike, Walk and Transit", but then clearly says "Bus". I was going to go and state the obvious but I won't bother. If people are so clueless as to think an area which will eventually have 6-8 MILLION people in it does not need anything other than cars and busses, they deserve what they are gonna get.
Anything is possible w Amazon, even deciding not to build anywhere, or even scrap plans. Some business analysts suggest that Amazon is over-reaching in too many areas in the first place, and could crash and burn LOL
Last edited by boissoneau; 02-26-2019 at 08:14 AM..
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