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Old 02-21-2019, 06:18 AM
 
68 posts, read 10,772 times
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In this morning's, Wall Street Journal there is a FULL PAGE AD by Medallion Homes and its owner Carlos Beruff suggesting Amazon examine his proposal to build not a "site" but a CITY on 900-plus acres just south of Tampa in Manatee County, just off I 75.


Interesting proposal! (but probably not going to happen??) LOL
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Old 02-21-2019, 08:37 AM
 
134 posts, read 31,613 times
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Seems like he put through the proposal earlier during the initial search, too. According to this article from last year, Amazon actually set up a small logistics operation out of Palmetto so I guess it's not out of the realm of possibility: https://www.bradenton.com/news/busin...199159109.html
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Old 02-21-2019, 04:10 PM
 
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It is largely outside the realm of possibilities. Amazon has hundreds of proposals like that.

It is well known that high on the list of Amazon wants is....MASS TRANSIT. None here. The type of people who will populate such an HQ do not want to sit in traffic on I-75 daily.

Amazon has operations and large numbers of employees in many places - including here. That's mostly for supply....logistics. Tampa Airport is a hub for Amazon air operations. But this is due to the consumption in the area, not to the brain trusts and mass transit and lifestyles that Amazon must provide to entice top HW staff.

Maybe if Rick Scott hadn't turned down that high speed rail money and a corridor from Orlando to Tampa and then South was being built out...they'd attract this type of business.

It's a different world out there for the smart young people. They often don't own cars at all...and if they do they don't want to use them much. They want to bike and walk and use mass transit....

I would be extremely surprised if Amazon did anything other than warehousing and logistics in this part of Florida due to those reasons.
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Old 02-22-2019, 09:29 AM
 
134 posts, read 31,613 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
It is largely outside the realm of possibilities. Amazon has hundreds of proposals like that.
I'm well aware as I've been following the HQ2 story since announced as there were a few areas on my list of where I'd like to live next being floated around so I wanted to be able to buy into an area before it got insanely expensive. NY and VA were never on my list so I breathed a sigh of relief when they were chosen. They already have a warehouse in Ruskin and now this logistics operation in Palmetto, which is why I said it's not out of the realm of possibility for them to do more here considering they already have a presence in the area.

Do I think that Bradenton is going to get anything over the city outside Atlanta where they proposed to create a whole new city called Amazon? No, probably not. But I also realize that most companies aren't going to build a giant corporate office in the middle of an existing downtown area, either. The real estate would be quite expensive in the more popular cities that have real transit systems like NYC, Chicago, or San Francisco. Even Los Angeles has a subway system. Even down in Silicon Valley with companies like Facebook and Google they have commuter bus programs and don't rely so much on local transit. So there's going to be a lack of true transit in most places.

Is the rail line even dead here? I thought Brightline was partnering with Virgin and that the plan was still for it to eventually have a train between Tampa and Orlando? But I guess we can't count on anything until it's built. I'm sure there are plenty of people who want to see the high speed rail plan fail as I've seen countless stories about how many deaths there have been, but what people fail to realize is most of those appear to be suicides with people purposefully standing on the tracks. But I digress....

At this point I'd be surprised if they did replace NY. They'll probably just avoid splitting it up between the two places at all and just stick with VA so it's probably a moot point, but people can still hold out hope because despite the money rolled out for incentives, it would be profitable for the local economy wherever they end up.
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Old 02-22-2019, 10:01 AM
 
262 posts, read 74,565 times
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Id probably say there are professional workforce (lack thereof) issues that would keep them from the area. Id be fine with eating my words later if they decide otherwise. Id love to see a major employer decide to relocate here in some fashion other than a warehouse. Not that those are bad at all.

At this point, I would be surprised if we ever get Brightline at all. Im sure there are funding issues. I believe I read somewhere that Rick Scott rejected federal funding for it? Am I wrong in that? Maybe someone can clarify the details.
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Old 02-22-2019, 10:34 AM
 
2,245 posts, read 708,253 times
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Mass transit is unpopular in the U.S.. Only 5% of Americans choose mass transit to commute to work:

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/...g-to-work.html

And, its usage is plummeting:

https://www.apta.com/resources/stati...rship-APTA.pdf

The mass transit model works in a few high density urban areas like NYC, Boston, Philly, LA, Chicago, but not in suburbia, or small to mid-sized cities like those found in Manatee County.

Mass transit takes longer to get from point A to point B due to all the stops, and it doesn't start or stop where most people want it to.

Amazon choosing, or not choosing, Manatee County has nothing to do with the lack of mass transit.

Notice how California pulled the plug on its massive mass transit plans recently? The cost overruns were excessive, and the build time was too long. The feds pulled funding, and the CA Governor killed it because CA can't afford it w/o Federal funding.

Most cities that have mass transit are in financial trouble, so can't afford the upkeep. The NYC subway system is in disrepair, and most won't use it after dark due to crime. There are very few mass transit systems that are profitable, clean, well kept, and safe to use after dark. How profitable have Amtrak and Greyhound been? I know Atlanta's MARTA loses Millions annually.

95% of the people who do not use mass transit do not want to pay for the 5% who do. Thus, mass transit must be government subsidized which increases taxes, and then people flee those high tax areas and move to....Florida!

Mass transit has proven to be unaffordable and undesireable for 95% of Americans. Many who use it do so because they cannot afford a car. Or, due to terrible government transportation planning where population density was allowed to outpace the increase in roadways making it impossible to commute by car...like Manhattan.

Mass transit is governments answer to a government caused problem.

Florida's Brightline will wind up being a dismal and costly failure. I wouldn't want to be holding any of those Bonds when it fails. By all reports, those trains are nearly empty, and Brightline is keeping ridership figures quiet. Why approve Orlando to Tampa when Miami to West Palm Beach is losing money? Did you know 11 people have already been killed by Brightline trains?

If you want to pay high taxes for mass transit, Florida is not the place for you. It would be best for you to return to the high tax place you came from so you can enjoy riding the mass transit there. Please do not bring your dysfunctional public transportation ideas with you to Florida. They didn't work there, and they won't work here.
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Old 02-22-2019, 10:59 AM
 
262 posts, read 74,565 times
Reputation: 316
Quote:
Originally Posted by beach43ofus View Post
Mass transit is unpopular in the U.S.. Only 5% of Americans choose mass transit to commute to work:

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/...g-to-work.html

And, its usage is plummeting:

https://www.apta.com/resources/stati...rship-APTA.pdf

The mass transit model works in a few high density urban areas like NYC, Boston, Philly, LA, Chicago, but not in suburbia, or small to mid-sized cities like those found in Manatee County.

Mass transit takes longer to get from point A to point B due to all the stops, and it doesn't start or stop where most people want it to.

Amazon choosing, or not choosing, Manatee County has nothing to do with the lack of mass transit.

Notice how California pulled the plug on its massive mass transit plans recently? The cost overruns were excessive, and the build time was too long. The feds pulled funding, and the CA Governor killed it because CA can't afford it w/o Federal funding.

Most cities that have mass transit are in financial trouble, so can't afford the upkeep. The NYC subway system is in disrepair, and most won't use it after dark due to crime. There are very few mass transit systems that are profitable, clean, well kept, and safe to use after dark. How profitable have Amtrak and Greyhound been? I know Atlanta's MARTA loses Millions annually.

95% of the people who do not use mass transit do not want to pay for the 5% who do. Thus, mass transit must be government subsidized which increases taxes, and then people flee those high tax areas and move to....Florida!

Mass transit has proven to be unaffordable and undesireable for 95% of Americans. Many who use it do so because they cannot afford a car. Or, due to terrible government transportation planning where population density was allowed to outpace the increase in roadways making it impossible to commute by car...like Manhattan.

Mass transit is governments answer to a government caused problem.

Florida's Brightline will wind up being a dismal and costly failure. I wouldn't want to be holding any of those Bonds when it fails. By all reports, those trains are nearly empty, and Brightline is keeping ridership figures quiet. Why approve Orlando to Tampa when Miami to West Palm Beach is losing money? Did you know 11 people have already been killed by Brightline trains?

If you want to pay high taxes for mass transit, Florida is not the place for you. It would be best for you to return to the high tax place you came from so you can enjoy riding the mass transit there. Please do not bring your dysfunctional public transportation ideas with you to Florida. They didn't work there, and they won't work here.
Yeah, they won't choose Manatee because Manatee does not have an IT workforce to speak of. Not because of mass transit.

Are you saying that if Manhattan increased its roadways, you would be willing to drive around Manhattan by car? Not sure that would help much.

I mean we already pay a lot for roads. Last figure I saw was $7 million/mile or so.

40,000 people were killed in car accidents last year.

Mass transit is a potentially good/efficient option in larger cities with decent density that have traffic issues. You're right, though, probably not the best in Sarasota or Manatee.

Florida meanwhile, already has infrastructure issues, and will probably run into more in the future as it has to maintain a mass amount of it with so many people moving here and our continued outward growth.

I understand what you are saying but the fiscal conservative argument that always seems to end in wanting more roads and infrastructure doesn't really help your underlying argument of being "too expensive" and "inefficient".

If your argument was no public transit and also less roads/less reliance on cars, I could get on board. Replacing one expensive thing with another is not a great way to prove your point.

Additionally Ill say that I don't like taxes and my assumption that people are lying to themselves if they say that they do. I really don't want any of my taxes going towards roads either.
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Old 02-22-2019, 06:57 PM
 
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I agree with some of your points kombuch. I think building more toll roads from the Georgia-Florida line down the center of the State where land is less costly then out to both coasts is part of the answer. The FLA Turnpike serves the East Coast only. We need another to serve the SW Coast too. I'd make those free to full time FLA residents, 1/2 off for 6 month snowbirds, and full rate for the rest.

The Florida Turnpike is maxed out, and ready for widening. The bottleneck at its access point near Ocala must be fixed soon. Last time through there I saw lots of construction, so hope that fixes it for a while. Is that complete? Anyone gone through there recently that can give us a report?

I think Gov DeSantis just signed a bill appropriating $'s to extend a toll road North of Tampa further North. Was that passed?

How to achieve "no public transit and also less roads/less reliance on cars" People have to be transported somehow.

Here's a stab at it....how about eliminating all airplane/airport related taxes (even on jetfuel) & rental car taxes to encourage people to fly down and rent a car rather than driving down here? We'd have to figure out how to replace those taxes elsewhere though, and that would need to be tied to snowbirds/tourists since they are using our infrastructure. Maybe increase the bed taxes (state + local) by a offsetting amount, and add a closing cost impact fee to people buying real estate here that do not become full time Florida residents.

This would reduce traffic on I-95, I-75, & the FLA Turnpike, but it wouldn't reduce local traffic congestion. Only way to do that is to increase passenger payloads on busy local arteries like Tamiami Trail, University Pkwy, ect.. Maybe add HOV lanes to those local roads? Free for full time FLA residents, toll for the rest.

Our roads are fine in the Summer months. However, we can't kill the Goose that lays the Golden eggs (tourists & snowbirds), but their added strain to our infrastructure is the source of our challenge.

Maybe a per mile tax on any cars entering the state that do not possess a Florida tag AND driven by a holder of a full time Florida resident drivers license? Take odometer reading upon entry and exit, or sale of the vehicle. Charge some estimated fee up front upon entry, then again upon exit. If the estimate is too high, they'd get a credit back.

That doesn't reduce the reliance upon cars, or less roads, but does create revenues to produce more traffic lanes, and reduce congestion w/o adding taxes for full time FLA residents.

It would all have to be automated like the EZ pass, or Sunpass. How to collect odometer readings remotely?

Expanding Auto Train all the way up to Maine, and another one up to Chicago could help the interstates and turnpike, but not our local roads.

Cars carrying tourists/snowbirds with 1 or 2 occupants on major local arteries (Tamiami Trail for example) must be minimized, or be forced to pay more to add new lanes in the future.

Food/sundry delivery might help reduce local trips, but then you add the delivery vehicles.

Big box retailers make things worse. They increase miles driven. Smaller neighborhood retailers reduce miles driven, but they have been replaced by the big box stores...except Dollar General, CVS, Walgreens. Maybe charge sales tax on everything purchased at big box stores, and no taxes on anything at local stores. But what if you happen to live right next store to a Wal Mart? Why should those full time FLA residents have to pay sales tax on all of their purchases?

Maybe credit cards and drivers licenses (or legal ID cards) are geocoded, and taxes applied accordingly to distance from the retailer and residency status?

Just brainstorming to get the discussion going. Sorry if too long and disjointed.
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Old 02-23-2019, 11:26 AM
 
655 posts, read 161,966 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beach43ofus View Post
I think building more toll roads from the Georgia-Florida line down the center of the State where land is less costly then out to both coasts is part of the answer.

Maybe add HOV lanes to those local roads? Free for full time FLA residents, toll for the rest.
While there's not a lot of people out in the center of the state, all that land is owned, much of it by long time farmers and ranchers who have a lot of pull in Tallahassee. They're not going to take too kindly to eminent domain.

How do you add HOV lanes to a roadway that's not limited access?

For a guy that doesn't like bureaucracy, you sure added a whole heap of it in all your suggestions
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Old 02-23-2019, 04:21 PM
 
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Well, first of all, I saw not 1 idea/suggestion in your post on how to make things better. You just criticised my ideas and suggestions that I disclaimed as brainstorming. I should just ignore your reply until you added something constructive, but I'll forgive you for not being able to attempt to solve tough problems. I got your back on this...

I'll continue to solve them for you until you get the hang of it. I believe in you.

Eminant Domain...farming and ranching yields very low profits and tax revenues. Much of their output is shipped out of state and does not directly benefit Floridians. Thus, paying fair market value for grazing lands to create roadways that would benefit all Floridians while still paying the land owners fair market value for their lands would pass legal muster.

Perhaps provide grazing overpasses, or underpasses so the herds and farming could continue w/ minimal interference. They do this out West for Elk and other wildlife to traverse interstates. Or, dont you think if we offered a more lucrative use of their lands, they might buy-in to that? Why not revenue share with them? The tolls would yeild higher profits than farming.

Secondly, have you ever seen or travelled on the Leroy Selmon Pkwy in Tampa? Its above grade, so that 2nd level could be the HOV lanes. Grazing herds and farm implements could still pass below in certain section fo the roadways.

Yes, I hate beaurocracy. However, there are times when its unavoidable...like building new interstates and cross state roadways. I'd seek to minimize government control, and instead form private partnership by all stakeholders involved as to create win-wins wherever possible. I'd offer to make the landowners stewards of our new roadways while they increase profits and still grow crops and raise livestock. We can have it all.

Okay, so now I'm ready for you to take the ball from me and make some constructive comments to move the ball downfield. The goal is minimal government control, and win-win for all stakeholders. Expand you mind. Be creative.
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