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Old 09-13-2017, 07:00 AM
 
370 posts, read 324,016 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SavannahLife View Post
and this was only a low-energy tropical storm when it hit us. Perhaps it's time Fooler and the rest of the county should re-think things, and get some development standards and so forth. Subdivisions should buffer the marsh and wetlands. For real, not just stuff on paper that isn't used. Stop filling wetlands, creating little ponds and thinking that'll fix it. Just sayin'. There are also opposing economic pressures. I get it. It's all about what the citizens here want to see in the long run. Maintaining complicated "drainage" is not free. Manage development standards and save money and property damages in the long run.
Wetlands aren't "filled" unless an equal or greater area is turned into a wetland through mitigation and construction. The "ponds" serve two purposes: to recharge the aquifer and to lessen the amount of stormwater drainage into the storm sewers; to help them maintain efficiency. Through widening major drainage canals and installing a system of pump stations that's rivaled only by New Orleans, I'd say Savannah has done much to help mitigate flooding. The thing is, Savannah will always be low-lying and along the coast. There's only so much that can be done.
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Old 09-13-2017, 02:09 PM
 
4,120 posts, read 6,591,724 times
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Originally Posted by 843904 View Post
Wetlands aren't "filled" unless an equal or greater area is turned into a wetland through mitigation and construction. The "ponds" serve two purposes: to recharge the aquifer and to lessen the amount of stormwater drainage into the storm sewers; to help them maintain efficiency. Through widening major drainage canals and installing a system of pump stations that's rivaled only by New Orleans, I'd say Savannah has done much to help mitigate flooding. The thing is, Savannah will always be low-lying and along the coast. There's only so much that can be done.
Most of old Savannah is pretty high up & has no issues with flooding other than midtown. There are plans to fix that with an updated drainage canal. The big issues are the new construction communities out in Pooler in what once were rice fields and "wetlands" they were drained and developed. These area used to flood 30 years ago and are lower than most of proper Savannah.
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Old 09-13-2017, 04:37 PM
 
Location: Coastal Georgia
50,173 posts, read 63,623,198 times
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We really have had heavier rains in Pooler than we had with Irma. I am glad the folks who were flooded during Matthew did not get it this time.
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Old 09-13-2017, 09:00 PM
 
Location: Savannah
2,099 posts, read 2,268,050 times
Reputation: 1336
Quote:
Originally Posted by 843904 View Post
Wetlands aren't "filled" unless an equal or greater area is turned into a wetland through mitigation and construction. The "ponds" serve two purposes: to recharge the aquifer and to lessen the amount of stormwater drainage into the storm sewers; to help them maintain efficiency. Through widening major drainage canals and installing a system of pump stations that's rivaled only by New Orleans, I'd say Savannah has done much to help mitigate flooding. The thing is, Savannah will always be low-lying and along the coast. There's only so much that can be done.
Yes. Well I agree to an extent. Realistically. I see you are familiar with this topic.

All right let me throw out a line of thought here. Just for debate, let's take this angle:....

Indeed, there is something that can be done. Stop filling wetlands. Except in hardships, true variances. Recreating what's already there in terms of hydrology is expensive. It doesn't always work. It's hard to predict hydrology, it's more than just crunching numbers into AutoCAD. And it's not free to maintain a sprawling system of drainage. Savannah, which used to be a pillar of planning and engineering, is not exactly this anymore. Especially in laissez faire Pooler. I don't think it's 'too soon' for these kind of debates, I think it's right on time, or not soon enough, that we begin discussing the consequences of letting development run off the rails like Houston. Pooler is heading to Levittown/Abercorn North. There are positives. New commercial provides jobs and variety in shopping. This is good. But can we build it better?

For areas next to the water and marsh, stop building immediately on the marsh line. Give it a buffer. Sea levels are rising. Even an Exxon CEO would admit that. On paper, Georgia manages floodplains, marsh buffers, etc. But in reality subdivision developers keep chipping away, always getting variances. Especially here. Mitigate? Sure. That's expensive. In tax money and in future lives lost. Avoid > Minimize > Mitigate. Mitigate being last resort. I used to work in waders. And let's double down and protect the remaining large majestic areas we still have in coastal Georgia, like Cumberland Island, from being destroyed by greedy developers like the Candler family, or McIntosh Co trying to gobble up Sapelo, etc. Now is the time in fact to buy up even more land along the sea, to prevent it from being built on and thus roping us to future taxes for spending on recovery from future hurricanes and sea rise. Make it parks. Which will naturally buffer us from storm surges. Win-win. And I know that what's built now, already, that's there. I'm just saying to take all this in to consideration for future development. Okay, off my soap box! Thoughts from the gang?
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Old 09-13-2017, 09:10 PM
 
Location: Savannah
2,099 posts, read 2,268,050 times
Reputation: 1336
case in point, this is a bandaid: Pooler examining possible stormwater utility fee | SavannahNow A rain tax, is after the fact. Or on the front end, plan properly and build around wetlands not on them. Will be interesting to see how this goes.
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Old 09-14-2017, 12:40 AM
 
Location: St Simons Island, GA
23,390 posts, read 43,926,501 times
Reputation: 16664
Quote:
Originally Posted by SavannahLife View Post
And let's double down and protect the remaining large majestic areas we still have in coastal Georgia, like Cumberland Island, from being destroyed by greedy developers like the Candler family
You were doing fine until this hyperbolic mischaracterization of the Candler family and their effort to build a couple of vacation homes within their family compound on Cumberland. It is their private property and they have always been responsible stewards of it. That plus the fact that their tenancy predates that of the federal government by 40 years.
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Old 09-14-2017, 08:15 AM
 
370 posts, read 324,016 times
Reputation: 443
Quote:
Originally Posted by LovinDecatur View Post
You were doing fine until this hyperbolic mischaracterization of the Candler family and their effort to build a couple of vacation homes within their family compound on Cumberland. It is their private property and they have always been responsible stewards of it. That plus the fact that their tenancy predates that of the federal government by 40 years.
^Must agree. Private property & the right to develop it are cornerstone.
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Old 09-14-2017, 08:21 AM
 
370 posts, read 324,016 times
Reputation: 443
Quote:
Originally Posted by SavannahLife View Post
Yes. Well I agree to an extent. Realistically. I see you are familiar with this topic.

All right let me throw out a line of thought here. Just for debate, let's take this angle:....

Indeed, there is something that can be done. Stop filling wetlands. Except in hardships, true variances. Recreating what's already there in terms of hydrology is expensive. It doesn't always work. It's hard to predict hydrology, it's more than just crunching numbers into AutoCAD. And it's not free to maintain a sprawling system of drainage. Savannah, which used to be a pillar of planning and engineering, is not exactly this anymore. Especially in laissez faire Pooler. I don't think it's 'too soon' for these kind of debates, I think it's right on time, or not soon enough, that we begin discussing the consequences of letting development run off the rails like Houston. Pooler is heading to Levittown/Abercorn North. There are positives. New commercial provides jobs and variety in shopping. This is good. But can we build it better?

For areas next to the water and marsh, stop building immediately on the marsh line. Give it a buffer. Sea levels are rising. Even an Exxon CEO would admit that. On paper, Georgia manages floodplains, marsh buffers, etc. But in reality subdivision developers keep chipping away, always getting variances. Especially here. Mitigate? Sure. That's expensive. In tax money and in future lives lost. Avoid > Minimize > Mitigate. Mitigate being last resort. I used to work in waders. And let's double down and protect the remaining large majestic areas we still have in coastal Georgia, like Cumberland Island, from being destroyed by greedy developers like the Candler family, or McIntosh Co trying to gobble up Sapelo, etc. Now is the time in fact to buy up even more land along the sea, to prevent it from being built on and thus roping us to future taxes for spending on recovery from future hurricanes and sea rise. Make it parks. Which will naturally buffer us from storm surges. Win-win. And I know that what's built now, already, that's there. I'm just saying to take all this in to consideration for future development. Okay, off my soap box! Thoughts from the gang?
I agree with much written here. Where we will part ways is regulating what people can build on private property. As long as it conforms to zoning. I will say that maybe we should consider materials, distances to waterline, etc, and make them part of the zoning structure. I'm not in favor of more government, but I do support responsible development in sensitive areas.
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Old 09-14-2017, 09:08 AM
 
Location: Savannah
2,099 posts, read 2,268,050 times
Reputation: 1336
So I agree with the libertarian thing. Mostly as protest, I voted Gary. I am there with it on social issues. My neighbor can do whatever they want. But, do you want your neighbor to create flooding, on your yard?? I am trying to scale that metaphor out, to the watersheds of the state. Indeed there are and should be exceptions. Like agriculture. But I feel we can do better. Cumberland? Yes the original family was an excellent magnanimous shining beacon of the good that successful folks in America can do. But the Lumar Corp the family's heirs slavishly subdividing right by the Sea Camp and the landing gets no support from me. It will look sad. Anyway that's what barrier islands do. They are barriers. They take the brunt of storms. What would happen to St Marys without it! Building on them, defeats this. Cumberland is a national treasure. It is wilderness. Responsible development in many places works fine and it just means being careful. Cumberland is different and hopefully will remain wilderness.
I'm sure the billionaires will probably get their way. Their family is cleverly trying to conflate the zoning issue with "takings" on the inland, with their surrogates on Facebook spreading fake news. The issue on the island is completely separate from anything inland. The Nat'l Park Service isn't going to decide to seize Cletus McGee's back yard somewhere in south Ga and annex into Cumberland Island. Anyway if they win, whatever. Another great place a little less great. I mean, unless you are their cousin or something, spending the summer in their pool.. whose team are you on? I go to Cumberland a few times a year and it's just awesome. I'll start a separate thread on this when the issue picks back up some time.

843 you mention New Orleans. They are holding back the seas with engineering. (mitigation, fix after the fact) A gamble. What happens when pumps fail, levees break. We know. Not an example to follow. New Orleans a lesson of man vs ocean. If we design with sea level rise in mind we will fare better right? I know we have the Nat'l Flood Ins program and its requirements but I believe there's still work to be done on this in our great city!
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Old 09-14-2017, 02:28 PM
 
Location: St Simons Island, GA
23,390 posts, read 43,926,501 times
Reputation: 16664
Quote:
Originally Posted by SavannahLife View Post
So I agree with the libertarian thing. Mostly as protest, I voted Gary. I am there with it on social issues. My neighbor can do whatever they want. But, do you want your neighbor to create flooding, on your yard?? I am trying to scale that metaphor out, to the watersheds of the state. Indeed there are and should be exceptions. Like agriculture. But I feel we can do better. Cumberland? Yes the original family was an excellent magnanimous shining beacon of the good that successful folks in America can do. But the Lumar Corp the family's heirs slavishly subdividing right by the Sea Camp and the landing gets no support from me. It will look sad. Anyway that's what barrier islands do. They are barriers. They take the brunt of storms. What would happen to St Marys without it! Building on them, defeats this. Cumberland is a national treasure. It is wilderness. Responsible development in many places works fine and it just means being careful. Cumberland is different and hopefully will remain wilderness.
I'm sure the billionaires will probably get their way. Their family is cleverly trying to conflate the zoning issue with "takings" on the inland, with their surrogates on Facebook spreading fake news. The issue on the island is completely separate from anything inland. The Nat'l Park Service isn't going to decide to seize Cletus McGee's back yard somewhere in south Ga and annex into Cumberland Island. Anyway if they win, whatever. Another great place a little less great. I mean, unless you are their cousin or something, spending the summer in their pool.. whose team are you on? I go to Cumberland a few times a year and it's just awesome. I'll start a separate thread on this when the issue picks back up some time.

843 you mention New Orleans. They are holding back the seas with engineering. (mitigation, fix after the fact) A gamble. What happens when pumps fail, levees break. We know. Not an example to follow. New Orleans a lesson of man vs ocean. If we design with sea level rise in mind we will fare better right? I know we have the Nat'l Flood Ins program and its requirements but I believe there's still work to be done on this in our great city!
I know the Candler family.
They are not billionaires.
They began summering on Cumberland in the 1920's.
"Lumar" is an LLC, not a development corporation. It's common practice to put vacation properties into an LLC and there's nothing nefarious about it.
They are not expanding their holdings there. They couldn't anyway. The land is already platted; they are simply seeking approval to build additional houses on their land. They are not interested in altering the density or the character of their property, and there will be guidelines set forth by the Camden BOC.
Sea Camp is 1/4 mile away from their property boundary, and the houses are not visible from there, unless the campers deliberately encroach on the property. And after all, the Candlers were there first.
What they are doing is forthright and responsible, and this agreement was in place from the get-go.

Rezoning proposed for 1,000 acres on Cumberland Island | SavannahNow

We've discussed this before, as you know.

Georgia's Barrier Islands: How Much Protection Is Too Much Protection?
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