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Old 05-16-2014, 03:56 PM
 
1,692 posts, read 1,912,171 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jambo101 View Post
As we are only talking hypothetical scenarios we can only give hypothetical responses so no one is right or wrong and every ones answers are as relevant as any one elses,
I posted many links that show that Google and the US Govt. are spending millions in research to deal with such hypothetical scenarios. It is critical for advanced machines (robots) to have (machine) ethics.

Quote:
If a self driving car comes upon a school bus that for some reason isnt autonomous and is full of very young children and assuming both vehicles have no ability to brake, what would the computer choose to do to avoid a collision?? Its rather an impossible question to answer as i'm not the computer but whatever the outcome i'd bet the computer would deal with the situation a lot better than most drivers would.
The computer will answer that question based on an algorithm programmed by humans (machine ethics).
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Old 05-16-2014, 04:24 PM
 
33,184 posts, read 39,183,307 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249 View Post
I posted many links that show that Google and the US Govt. are spending millions in research to deal with such hypothetical scenarios. It is critical for advanced machines (robots) to have (machine) ethics.



The computer will answer that question based on an algorithm programmed by humans (machine ethics).

If these self driving machines are controlled through artificial intelligence who can say what ethics an AI might adopt, it may decide all humans are a detriment to its destiny and start destroying us all.
Once computers develpe artificial intelligence human input is no longer needed as the computer will deal with its own algorithms.
I'm not getting what you are looking for as a response to your hypothetical scenario as you seem to be asking what a computer will do in a hypothetical situation,in my human opinion If its just a computer it will do whatever was programmed into it,no ethics involved., if its Artificial intelligence theres no telling what it might do..
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Old 05-16-2014, 04:38 PM
 
12,973 posts, read 12,166,393 times
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Actually the Computer won't think about it at all. It quite completely lacks the level of abstraction to even consider the question.

It will look at an unacceptable condition and do whatever it is programmed to do which is likely to be minimize the energy available in the collision.

This does not in any way suggest the ethics question is not an interesting one in computer science. It is no place near being dealt with in even a rudimentary way but it is being thought about. And it more likely comes to fruition in decision making software. Such things as what treatment is best for a disease say...

The autonomous car simply operates as programmed. It deals with moving or fixed objects with velocities and eventually mass. It attempts to avoid any situation where it might eventually come into contact with another object.

There will always be the circumstance where a machine hits the 5 year old kid. No matter what the defense one can contrive a situation where it is unavoidable. Then you hit the kid. Fact of life.

For a standard one might start off with better at avoiding the kid than a human driven car. That won't in the long run be good enough...but it does provide a starting standard.
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Old 05-16-2014, 04:56 PM
 
1,692 posts, read 1,912,171 times
Reputation: 1012
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambo101 View Post
If these self driving machines are controlled through artificial intelligence who can say what ethics an AI might adopt, it may decide all humans are a detriment to its destiny and start destroying us all.
I guess we have been talking about two different things. Or maybe you are just avoiding the tough question(s).
Clearly, I have been talking about the current generation Google Cars that are now licensed to test drive in three states and may be available to the public in a 1-2 years. I am not talking about an advanced AI that programs itself and learns on its own!


Quote:
Once computers develpe artificial intelligence human input is no longer needed as the computer will deal with its own algorithms.
Once .....
But right now Google programmers are programming the Google Car. There is a crash algorithm. Nothing that I have said is hypothetical. There is an entire division at Google that studies machine ethics.

Quote:
I'm not getting what you are looking for as a response to your hypothetical scenario as you seem to be asking what a computer will do in a hypothetical situation,in my human opinion If its just a computer it will do whatever was programmed into it,no ethics involved., if its Artificial intelligence theres no telling what it might do..
Exactly! You seem to get it now. The Google Car is (or will be) programmed for such hypothetical scenario? And who is programming the car? How are no ethics involved? Why is US Govt. and Google spending millions on machine ethics? Have they just gone crazy ?!?!?!?!?
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Old 05-16-2014, 05:00 PM
 
1,692 posts, read 1,912,171 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lvoc View Post
Actually the Computer won't think about it at all. It quite completely lacks the level of abstraction to even consider the question.

It will look at an unacceptable condition and do whatever it is programmed to do which is likely to be minimize the energy available in the collision.
You have clearly contradicted yourself. I am saying that the computer is going to HAVE TO BE programmed to consider ALL questions. A self-driving car or an advanced robot cannot be a DUMB machine. It has to be programmed in such a way that it can deal with all exceptions.

Please read this article for more information:
US Navy funds morality lessons for robots (Wired UK)
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Old 05-16-2014, 05:38 PM
 
12,973 posts, read 12,166,393 times
Reputation: 5399
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249 View Post
You have clearly contradicted yourself. I am saying that the computer is going to HAVE TO BE programmed to consider ALL questions. A self-driving car or an advanced robot cannot be a DUMB machine. It has to be programmed in such a way that it can deal with all exceptions.

Please read this article for more information:
US Navy funds morality lessons for robots (Wired UK)
Of course it can be a dumb machine. They exist. And they are dumb machines.

There is no contradiction. They are programmed to avoid collisions. They do not care with what they are colliding. And they do not know what the threatening object is...in fact it may not be knowable.


They are not programmed to recognize a school bus, whether or not a school bus has children on board and whether a different algorithm applies if they are a school bus with children.

Your article is irrelevant. Many cars today will automatically brake for an obstruction in front of them. They break the same for a school bus whether full or empty or a truck or another auto. The nature of the vehicle ahead is irrelevant to the response.

The initial version of the combat medic will simply take the wounded guy to the hospital. Some day there may be a version that determines whether alternative courses are pursued. But initially it will take the wounded guy in and that alone is sufficient to justify its use.

And on a battlefield the machines will kill those not identified as friends. The mechanism and the scope of that identification may well change over the years...but the basic don't kill a friend with a friend definition of our troop will be sufficient.
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Old 05-16-2014, 05:39 PM
 
Location: SC
8,385 posts, read 5,048,635 times
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Only when I am tired and want to make miles while I get a few zzzzzs.
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Old 05-16-2014, 05:40 PM
 
33,184 posts, read 39,183,307 times
Reputation: 28531
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249 View Post
Exactly! You seem to get it now. The Google Car is (or will be) programmed for such hypothetical scenario? And who is programming the car? How are no ethics involved? Why is US Govt. and Google spending millions on machine ethics? Have they just gone crazy ?!?!?!?!?
So its not about the computers ethics its about the ethics of those that programmed the program thats driving the car, computers dont think in terms of ethics, in fact they dont think at all they just do what you program them to do,veritable logical idiots
But to put a good ending on the story lets imagine the cars programming is such that it heroically drives off the bridge thus saving the lives of all the children on the bus..
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Old 05-17-2014, 03:45 AM
 
Location: Allendale MI
2,532 posts, read 1,823,577 times
Reputation: 694
I don't know why you guy are taking about computer ethics. You don't have to make your car conscious to have it drive you around.
Also Google doesn't have the best driver less cars right now.
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Old 05-17-2014, 03:54 AM
 
Location: Allendale MI
2,532 posts, read 1,823,577 times
Reputation: 694
This one isn't as good of the others but can come out by 2017

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX4rlFrBcjA
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