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Old 03-20-2018, 03:06 PM
 
20,231 posts, read 15,591,496 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora View Post
The Universe expanding rests on the observation that everything is moving away from us.

The Cosmic Microwave Background supports the Big Bang.

I think this is a decent video explaining the Big Bang.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_MFhAoUUmQ&t=167s
Not when applied to explaining the fact that the Universe is expanding.
We don't know but it's being worked out.
That's a very good video Matadora. I've seen it before but just got through watching it again. Thanks for posting it.
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Old 03-20-2018, 03:15 PM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 N, 🌄W
9,785 posts, read 4,095,375 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
That's a very good video Matadora. I've seen it before but just got through watching it again. Thanks for posting it.
My pleasure!
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Old 03-22-2018, 02:08 AM
 
1,203 posts, read 710,558 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimAZ View Post
So you believe mathematics is a man-made tool? Philosopher Karl Popper found an interesting paradox in that line of thinking: Science tells us with great certainty that humans are living creatures emergent from a physical world. By extension human consciousness must also be part and parcel of that same physical world, yet we cannot fully explain consciousness or recreate it using inanimate, physical objects.

In particular, the mathematical concepts of zero and infinity find no expression anywhere in our physical world, yet we routinely manipulate and use them in conscious thought processes. How is this possible if our minds (and mathematics) are solely products of a physical world?
For a while, in the early 20th century, they tried to reduce mathematical and logical principles to 'man-made tools' by redefining them as grammatical or semantical conventions. However, that idea didn't last long before it was shown to be intractably flawed.

For now it is a mystery, from a naturalist perspective, why the universe is logically/mathematically describable.

There are people today who believe logic and mathematics is based on empirical observation, and that it can be revised or refuted by further observations. But they get a spectacular amount of blowback and ridicule for that.

This is Krauss using logic to refute logic. "2+2=5" he says, "for extremely large values of 2".

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Old 03-23-2018, 11:31 AM
 
Location: Germany
2,221 posts, read 383,944 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhbj03 View Post
My understanding is this theory primarily rests on the observation that everything is moving away from us. Isn't this logic a bit too simplistic and "linear"? It's like looking at prices keep rising and predict it must be 0 at some point.
Your analogy may be your problem. Imagine recording the speed of a car as you accelerate. You can take the speed from several points and determine when you first started. It is the same with galaxy red shift, the further away a galaxy is (local group not included), the faster it is accelerating. From this we can determine when that accelerating started.

Other techniques support the idea the universe started expanding around 18 million years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhbj03 View Post
And how can everything fit into one "singularity"? We know even an atom has a certain width.
Apparently it didn't. Everything we have is a product of the expansion of the universe. It is like a hole and the earth taken out of it. The universe is like both the hole and the pile of earth. Everything is energy, and the universe consists of equal amounts of positive (matter) and negative (gravity) energy.
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Old 03-23-2018, 11:49 AM
 
Location: Germany
2,221 posts, read 383,944 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimAZ View Post
So you believe mathematics is a man-made tool?
Yes, maths, logic, morality, all man made tools. It's how we model our world and observe how it behaves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimAZ View Post
Philosopher Karl Popper found an interesting paradox in that line of thinking:
A link would be nice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimAZ View Post
Science tells us with great certainty that humans are living creatures emergent from a physical world. By extension human consciousness must also be part and parcel of that same physical world, yet we cannot fully explain consciousness or recreate it using inanimate, physical objects.
We can manipulate consciousness by manipulating the physical brain. Drugs, electrical stimulation, beer, usw. This tells us consciousness is most likely a product of that brain. And I believe there was a paper suggesting our consciousness was a product of our whole brain instead of being localized. Unfortunately I didn't save the link due to moving house.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimAZ View Post
In particular, the mathematical concepts of zero and infinity find no expression anywhere in our physical world, yet we routinely manipulate and use them in conscious thought processes. How is this possible if our minds (and mathematics) are solely products of a physical world?
Ha, the usual question begging. Why should it be impossible? I can imagine having zero beer.
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Old 03-23-2018, 11:51 AM
 
Location: Germany
2,221 posts, read 383,944 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hightower72 View Post
For now it is a mystery, from a naturalist perspective, why the universe is logically/mathematically describable.
It's a product of existence. There is no why, if X exists, X has properties and behaviours. It is the default position of existence.
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Old 03-23-2018, 01:56 PM
 
1,203 posts, read 710,558 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
It's a product of existence. There is no why, if X exists, X has properties and behaviours. It is the default position of existence.

"The miracle of the appropriateness of the language of mathematics for the formulation of the laws of physics is a wonderful gift which we neither understand nor deserve."


The quote above is by Eugene Wigner in 1960, a Nobel Prize-winning theoretical physicist. Obviously a bright guy. You might wonder why he (and others like him) would say something like this when it's so obvious to John Doe that this is just the way the universe is.

Is it because his views were written decades ago and knowledge theory has advanced since then, or did he have some insight about the foundations of science and reason that the typical, well-adjusted, well-educated citizen in the developed world didn't have.

You can read his full essay here: The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences

This is actually a very hefty topic that straddles epistemology, ontology, physics and mathematics. It goes into theories on what logical/mathematical axioms are, how we come to know logic/mathematics to be true, probability theory, philosophy of perception, decades of discourse in Rationalism and Empiricism. In other words, it probably needs its own topic. (Preferably in Philosophy).

Last edited by Hightower72; 03-23-2018 at 03:08 PM..
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Old 03-24-2018, 08:14 AM
 
Location: Germany
2,221 posts, read 383,944 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hightower72 View Post
"The miracle of the appropriateness of the language of mathematics for the formulation of the laws of physics is a wonderful gift which we neither understand nor deserve."


The quote above is by Eugene Wigner in 1960, a Nobel Prize-winning theoretical physicist. Obviously a bright guy. You might wonder why he (and others like him) would say something like this when it's so obvious to John Doe that this is just the way the universe is.

Is it because his views were written decades ago and knowledge theory has advanced since then, or did he have some insight about the foundations of science and reason that the typical, well-adjusted, well-educated citizen in the developed world didn't have.
Having had a quick look at you link, I'd say the former. Maybe the answer is so simple it is easy to overlook. Mathematics is effective precisely because it was invented to understand the world around us. As was logic, and to a smaller degree, language itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hightower72 View Post


Thanks, something to read further over my afternoon coffee.
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Old 03-24-2018, 01:54 PM
 
1,203 posts, read 710,558 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Mathematics is effective precisely because it was invented to understand the world around us.
If you open up a thread in the philosophy forum we can go over all the problems with this view, why it's not taken seriously by scholars, the multitude of failed attempts over decades to define logic/mathematics in this way, and so on.
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Old 03-25-2018, 12:58 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
6,830 posts, read 4,275,865 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hightower72 View Post
"The miracle of the appropriateness of the language of mathematics for the formulation of the laws of physics is a wonderful gift which we neither understand nor deserve."

The quote above is by Eugene Wigner in 1960, a Nobel Prize-winning theoretical physicist. Obviously a bright guy. You might wonder why he (and others like him) would say something like this when it's so obvious to John Doe that this is just the way the universe is.

[...]

You can read his full essay here: The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences

.
That's like saying: the unreasonable effectiveness of color and texture in art.
Harry Diogenes, color is both a property of objects and a tool. Like gravity. Like spoons. We didn't create those properties, but we did "see" them and described/understand them and use them.
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