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Old 06-04-2018, 08:22 PM
 
2,011 posts, read 800,347 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
Why would you expect your friend to be paid retail rates when the power company can buy it elsewhere or produce it themselves at much lower cost?
He doesnt have batteries, so what he doesnt use, gets "stored" via credits toward his light bill, but what they charge him vs what he gets credit for is beyond a rip off. Think he said he sends about 5k a month and they credit him about 5 cents per kw. But when he needed reach in to his credit, they charge him 20cent per kw out of his own "storage" In the end, he paid 15 cents but in reallity he is getting his own power back just they want to charge him for it. Cant get away with the 15 dollar month meter fee.


Some states and cities, you cant go completely off the grid if the grid is with in range of your house. So you have to hook up to the grid no matter what, now paying the bill is another story. If you dont pay the meter bill, they will cut your solar off.
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Old 06-05-2018, 04:13 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hitpausebutton2 View Post
they charge him 20cent per kw out of his own "storage" In the end, he paid 15 cents but in reallity he is getting his own power back just they want to charge him for it. Cant get away with the 15 dollar month meter fee.

That 20 cents is flat rate that does not separate the cost of the power and distribution presumably?

There is a cost involved with that "storage", the grid is not free and neither are the power plants. Most people don't realize this because they are paying flat fee all costs included, here in PA you can purchase power from different sources. The cost of the power itself and the distribution fees are itemized. As far as the power plants go a large part of what you pay for the power itself is the capital costs of the plants. When your friend and others are generating a lot of power they are idling plants. The cost per kWh necessarily rises. They are 100% dependent on that plant with grid tied system so surely they should pay for the costs involved with that as well.

If the power company can buy power wholesale for 5 cents and they have 15 cents per kWh in costs and profit it's perfectly sensible they would charge him like that.


Quote:
Some states and cities, you cant go completely off the grid if the grid is with in range of your house.
They may require you to be hooked to the grid, similarly they may require water hookup but that has legitimate reasons for sanitation. I'm not so sure there is legitimate reason to require power hookup. This would be separate than requiring net metering of solar array, I'm not aware of anywhere that requires net metering and if that is the case I would disagree with that.

Last edited by thecoalman; 06-05-2018 at 04:21 AM..
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Old 06-05-2018, 12:44 PM
 
2,011 posts, read 800,347 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
That 20 cents is flat rate that does not separate the cost of the power and distribution presumably?

There is a cost involved with that "storage", the grid is not free and neither are the power plants. Most people don't realize this because they are paying flat fee all costs included, here in PA you can purchase power from different sources. The cost of the power itself and the distribution fees are itemized. As far as the power plants go a large part of what you pay for the power itself is the capital costs of the plants. When your friend and others are generating a lot of power they are idling plants. The cost per kWh necessarily rises. They are 100% dependent on that plant with grid tied system so surely they should pay for the costs involved with that as well.

If the power company can buy power wholesale for 5 cents and they have 15 cents per kWh in costs and profit it's perfectly sensible they would charge him like that.


They may require you to be hooked to the grid, similarly they may require water hookup but that has legitimate reasons for sanitation. I'm not so sure there is legitimate reason to require power hookup. This would be separate than requiring net metering of solar array, I'm not aware of anywhere that requires net metering and if that is the case I would disagree with that.

Thats the word.. Net metering. he is in joplin,MO and they do that. During the day, he is sending power out to his "storage" and during the night, he is using his storage that he created that day or banked.

https://www.ameren.com/missouri/solar/net-metering
https://www.news-leader.com/story/ne...nies/99828320/
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Old 06-05-2018, 06:13 PM
 
36,221 posts, read 36,931,391 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hitpausebutton2 View Post
Thats the word.. Net metering. he is in joplin,MO and they do that. During the day, he is sending power out to his "storage" and during the night, he is using his storage that he created that day or banked.

Net metering is the most practical way to operate to operate a solar array. First and foremost you do not have the cost of batteries which can be very expensive themselves. Just to reiterate the use of the grid infrastructure incurs a cost and if you are going to use that infrastructure you need to pay those costs.
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Old 06-05-2018, 06:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
Net metering is the most practical way to operate to operate a solar array. First and foremost you do not have the cost of batteries which can be very expensive themselves. Just to reiterate the use of the grid infrastructure incurs a cost and if you are going to use that infrastructure you need to pay those costs.
Who pays the light bill at the power plant? same concept just on smaller scale.
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Old 06-05-2018, 07:03 PM
 
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I'm not sure I understand your comment.

Look at it this way, if everyone had a net metered solar system and they were not being charged for their use of that infrastructure there is no one paying for it.

If your friend is not paying for the use of that infrastructure the expense that he is causing is offloaded onto ratepayers.
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Old 06-06-2018, 07:53 AM
 
2,011 posts, read 800,347 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
I'm not sure I understand your comment.

Look at it this way, if everyone had a net metered solar system and they were not being charged for their use of that infrastructure there is no one paying for it.

If your friend is not paying for the use of that infrastructure the expense that he is causing is offloaded onto ratepayers.

Reading up he is supposly helping the grid by supply power to help offset the power plant. Its no much but its something. He has to by law, or he could foot the bill for batteries. He is planning on getting a small set to store during winter as he knows no matter what his bill will remain the same even before he got solar. They should be paying him customer rate vs whole sale for helping the local community. Do you honestly think the said power company is paying for its own power consumption?
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Old 06-06-2018, 08:57 AM
 
36,221 posts, read 36,931,391 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hitpausebutton2 View Post
Reading up he is supposly helping the grid by supply power to help offset the power plant.

That's not a help to the power plant. Firstly the capital costs for that power plant need to spent whether your friend has a solar system or not. It needs to be able to meet demands when his solar array is producing nothing. You cannot eliminate the capital invested to build it. The more these plants are running at or near maximum capacity the more efficient they run. The more they run also reduces cost per kWh over the lifetime of the plant. Solar that can only temporarily lower the demand on that plant necessarily causes the costs to rise to run it.


If you wan an analogy here suppose you needed a vehicle that could run almost 24/7. That would dictate you buy gasoline powered vehicle. Buying an additional vehicle powered by electric increases you capital investment. It also increase the cost per mile on the gasoline powered vehicle because the capital investment is spread over fewer miles. You can void that by simply utilizing the gasoline powered car which is the only car that can fully meet your needs.


In a real world example Germany under the right conditions can supply their grid 100% with renewable energy, they pay about 35 cents per kWh to do that. There is tax on German electric used specifically for subsidizing renewable energy that approaches the cost of the lowest retail rates in the US.



Quote:
They should be paying him customer rate vs whole sale for helping the local community.
He's not helping the local community if they were required to buy it at retail prices because those increased costs would be passed onto the other ratepayers in the community who do not have solar.
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Old 06-07-2018, 10:25 AM
 
4,008 posts, read 977,352 times
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Anyone care to estimate how much energy related technology was/ is being suppressed under the Invention Secrecy Act of 1951, or due to threat to national security/ economy?
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Old 06-07-2018, 11:25 AM
 
2,011 posts, read 800,347 times
Reputation: 1673
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
That's not a help to the power plant. Firstly the capital costs for that power plant need to spent whether your friend has a solar system or not. It needs to be able to meet demands when his solar array is producing nothing. You cannot eliminate the capital invested to build it. The more these plants are running at or near maximum capacity the more efficient they run. The more they run also reduces cost per kWh over the lifetime of the plant. Solar that can only temporarily lower the demand on that plant necessarily causes the costs to rise to run it.


If you wan an analogy here suppose you needed a vehicle that could run almost 24/7. That would dictate you buy gasoline powered vehicle. Buying an additional vehicle powered by electric increases you capital investment. It also increase the cost per mile on the gasoline powered vehicle because the capital investment is spread over fewer miles. You can void that by simply utilizing the gasoline powered car which is the only car that can fully meet your needs.


In a real world example Germany under the right conditions can supply their grid 100% with renewable energy, they pay about 35 cents per kWh to do that. There is tax on German electric used specifically for subsidizing renewable energy that approaches the cost of the lowest retail rates in the US.



He's not helping the local community if they were required to buy it at retail prices because those increased costs would be passed onto the other ratepayers in the community who do not have solar.

so in theory, he is hurting the power plant and other residents by providing his own power, thus less demand on the plant. No wonder they lobby states to tax the hell out of solar residents.
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