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Old 10-27-2018, 01:39 PM
 
Location: Upstate NY
30,509 posts, read 9,116,959 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus86 View Post
I have tried finding hard scientific definitions of the two sexes, but I just end up finding flimsy speculations about "gender fluidity" without any actual science behind it.
So all wishful thinking and personal feelings aside, what are the objective definitions of "man" and "woman"?

My understanding so far is that men are individuals with a penis, XY-chromosomes and testicles, whereas women are individuals with a vagina, XX-chromosomes, a uterus and an ovary.
Are there any other definitions?

LOL consult an old resource--like an encyclopedia.

 
Old 10-27-2018, 01:55 PM
 
Location: Somewhere in northern Alabama
16,863 posts, read 51,384,651 times
Reputation: 27750
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
Most presexual children don't care about anything but weenies and woo-woos. Which neither means there aren't many more complex concepts at the adult and academic levels, nor that children have to be elaborately schooled in the seven or nine genders they might encounter when they start bar-hopping.
LOL! True. Most people in a science forum grow beyond thinking simply of weenies and woo-woos though. (I do like the visualization of Einstein asking his wife if he could see her woo-woo though. ) Often the two digit number people put as the last two characters of their 'nym represents their birthdate. With Marcus86, that would put him solidly in the adult category, although considerably younger than an old fert like me. My guess is that he can handle it.
 
Old 10-27-2018, 01:55 PM
 
4,866 posts, read 2,158,779 times
Reputation: 12399
i'll stick with the chromosome/genetic definition, the 23rd pair dna. Beyond that folks tend to seek the physical attributes that are more commonly linked thru the phases of evolution in stages...puberty...etc.
(since this is dealing with homosapians, I'll leave the rhetoric of the animal kingdom to the versed.)
 
Old 10-27-2018, 02:51 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
3,084 posts, read 1,040,161 times
Reputation: 3942
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delahanty View Post
LOL consult an old resource--like an encyclopedia.
Which, it should be obvious, were written by generations of old white men. Wasn't it an early 20th century Britannica that still had "WOMAN: see MAN."?
 
Old 10-27-2018, 03:14 PM
Status: "Concerned" (set 8 days ago)
 
Location: San Antonio, Texas
37 posts, read 8,244 times
Reputation: 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by harry chickpea View Post
*shrug* It is simply what is needed to push back against millennia of uneducated thought. In a different setting where the concepts were clearly understood, I wouldn't bother to press the point.

The more people are exposed to variance, and pushed into recognizing that it exists and is fine, - even at the expense of my seemingly surreal resistance to a simple black and white concept - the less likely they are to embrace other stupidities that have a thin and torn cloak of science hiding them.

Matadora's post is much more along the lines of scientific response than comments about penises and vaginas being the determining factor of male or female. The concepts of sexes goes well beyond the basic "birds and bees" talk that parents might have with their children.
Wow, over 10,000 years of human history and human philosophy is somehow wrong just because Human Society suddenly changed and some incredible enlightenment has uniquely occurred within the last 10 years.

There have always been hermaphrodites... though nowadays the fluidity of gender identity is such that you can change genders, or have none at all with only a signature to a doctor and find a nonprofit willing to spend $10,000 to reassign you to the desired gender. $10,000 by the way that would match the total income of a total SSDI dependent...

You can't hold up Hermaphrodites as the primary reason a person can wake up one day and decide "Maybe I want to be like a woman" when their **** argues with them every time they walk into a convenience store and see a 30ish woman bent over to look at the bottom of the cooler for a quart of Milk... especially the kind of women who would wear almost nothing and the side of her areole hangs out of some strategically placed piece of masking tape... and your stomach growls at the suggestion, so you go over to serendipitously get a bottle of Promised Land, or HEB if you're broke enough for something not so creamy and satisfying. That's when you get nailed for sexual harassment when you notice the tape slip off, and you end up on the floor with a lump on the head, and a lump somewhere else. Denied... and if you can't get something that sleezy, you're thinking maybe you just plain aren't manly enough. So it's over to the magazine rack for a Hustler magazine, and a bottle of lotion... and in the confusion you start to wonder about PlayGirl. Now you're curious... because someone told you enough that you weren't manly.

Such men might consider the world of hard-up women... like Cougars, Bi-Sexual Dykes, Ex-Convicts, Drug Addicts, Widowed Retiree's, and rehabilitated Prostitutes... all of which just plain want someone to not leave home and not leave them to die alone. But women like that often leave me divided. You should feel sympathy and love for those in need, but if you know that women like that put themselves in those kind of situations out of their own stupidity, particularly if she's ruined by an uncurbable venereal disease then you should consider the expiration date on the jug and remember that the long removed sticker says "IF SEAL IS BROKEN, DO NOT USE." So you take those As-Is, and remember that the transmission slips sometimes and they might be a little higher on matinance than most others on the car lot, decide if she's classy enough for the total restoration and bumper job that comes with a vintage vehicle. Before you know it you will be taking her to the car show and showing her off to everyone's envy. She might even make it to the magazine cover. But you'll always need to handle a little more gently, and repairs are more expensive.

Or maybe it's just simpler than that. Tell boys they are boys and kick around abusive dads who call their little boys "Girlie" for liking musical Insturments instead of a football, or liking to paint instead of roll in the mud. Growing up that way as the sensitive guy but athletic enough to not be totally gone got me laid plenty of times. The girl of your dreams is the one that relates to you and isn't just looking at your penis size or your car, or money - she'll be out the door faster than you can say "WARTS" when that all goes away. Rather, the way you call her boss when she's cramping and make sure she's OK for that once a month ache before you head for work. Women like that will wait for you to get in the shower and aches pains and all for a rehash of Bon Jovi's "Slippery when Wet." A woman like that, no matter how imperfect is the kind of woman who keep. Your best friend... in the opposite side of the isle.

But this all goes out the window when people just don't think about what matters, and that's consistent definitions in society from a young age on where right and wrong, and what human language actually means.

Last edited by TexasBard79; 10-27-2018 at 03:38 PM..
 
Old 10-27-2018, 03:39 PM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 N, 🌄W
10,085 posts, read 4,161,649 times
Reputation: 6371
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasBard79 View Post
There have always been hermaphrodites...
In Humans:
Quote:
Hermaphrodite is used in older literature to describe any person whose physical characteristics do not neatly fit male or female classifications, but some people advocate to replace the term with intersex. Intersex describes a wide variety of combinations of what are considered male and female biology. Intersex biology may include, for example, ambiguous-looking external genitalia, karyotypes that include mixed XX and XY chromosome pairs (46XX/46XY, 46XX/47XXY or 45X/XY mosaic).

Clinically, medicine currently describes intersex people as having disorders of sex development, a term vigorously contested. This is particularly because of a relationship between medical terminology and medical intervention. Intersex civil society organizations, and many human rights institutions, have criticized medical interventions designed to make intersex bodies more typically male or female.

Source:Hermaphrodite in Humans
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasBard79 View Post
though nowadays the fluidity of gender identity is such that you can change genders, or have none at all with only a signature to a doctor and find a nonprofit willing to spend $10,000 to reassign you to the desired gender. $10,000 by the way that would match the total income of a total SSDI dependent.
A genital operation or hormone therapy does not change the sex of our species.

As I stated earlier that sex is determined via the existence of a Y chromosome or the absence of the Y chromosome.

In humans and other placental mammals, the Y chromosome mechanism of sex determination occurs, in which the Y chromosome determines the sex of an individual.

Individuals with a Y chromosome are genetically male and individuals without a Y chromosome are genetically female.

SRY gene

Check out the drop down in the above link for Health Conditions Related to Genetic Changes to view the disorders that occur in people who have more than one X or Y chromosome.

These disorders are why science defines sex based on having one Y chromosome to be male or to be missing the Y chromosome to be female.

The problems found in Klinefelter individuals indicate that one X and one Y chromosome are needed for normal development in males.

No amount of genital operations and hormone therapy will change a person's inherited sex determining chromosome.
 
Old 10-27-2018, 03:50 PM
 
Location: Somewhere in northern Alabama
16,863 posts, read 51,384,651 times
Reputation: 27750
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasBard79 View Post
Wow, over 10,000 years of human history and human philosophy is somehow wrong just because Human Society suddenly changed and some incredible enlightenment has uniquely occurred within the last 10 years.

There have always been hermaphrodites... though nowadays the fluidity of gender identity is such that you can change genders, or have none at all with only a signature to a doctor and find a nonprofit willing to spend $10,000 to reassign you to the desired gender. $10,000 by the way that would match the total income of a total SSDI dependent...

You can't hold up Hermaphrodites as the primary reason a person can wake up one day and decide "Maybe I want to be like a woman" when their **** argues with them every time they walk into a convenience store and see a 30ish woman bent over to look at the bottom of the cooler for a quart of Milk... especially the kind of women who would wear almost nothing and the side of her areole hangs out of some strategically placed piece of masking tape... and your stomach growls at the suggestion, so you go over to serendipitously get a bottle of Promised Land, or HEB if you're broke enough for something not so creamy and satisfying. That's when you get nailed for sexual harassment when you notice the tape slip off, and you end up on the floor with a lump on the head, and a lump somewhere else. Denied... and if you can't get something that sleezy, you're thinking maybe you just plain aren't manly enough. So it's over to the magazine rack for a Hustler magazine, and a bottle of lotion... and in the confusion you start to wonder about PlayGirl. Now you're curious... because someone told you enough that you weren't manly.

Such men might consider the world of hard-up women... like Cougars, Bi-Sexual Dykes, Ex-Convicts, Drug Addicts, Widowed Retiree's, and rehabilitated Prostitutes... all of which just plain want someone to not leave home and not leave them to die alone. But women like that often leave me divided. You should feel sympathy and love for those in need, but if you know that women like that put themselves in those kind of situations out of their own stupidity, particularly if she's ruined by an uncurbable venereal disease then you should consider the expiration date on the jug and remember that the long removed sticker says "IF SEAL IS BROKEN, DO NOT USE." So you take those As-Is, and remember that the transmission slips sometimes and they might be a little higher on matinance than most others on the car lot, decide if she's classy enough for the total restoration and bumper job that comes with a vintage vehicle. Before you know it you will be taking her to the car show and showing her off to everyone's envy. She might even make it to the magazine cover. But you'll always need to handle a little more gently, and repairs are more expensive.

Or maybe it's just simpler than that. Tell boys they are boys and kick around abusive dads who call their little boys "Girlie" for liking musical Insturments instead of a football, or liking to paint instead of roll in the mud. Growing up that way as the sensitive guy but athletic enough to not be totally gone got me laid plenty of times. The girl of your dreams is the one that relates to you and isn't just looking at your penis size or your car, or money - she'll be out the door faster than you can say "WARTS" when that all goes away. Rather, the way you call her boss when she's cramping and make sure she's OK for that once a month ache before you head for work. Women like that will wait for you to get in the shower and aches pains and all for a rehash of Bon Jovi's "Slippery when Wet." A woman like that, no matter how imperfect is the kind of woman who keep. Your best friend... in the opposite side of the isle.

But this all goes out the window when people just don't think about what matters, and that's consistent definitions in society from a young age on where right and wrong, and what human language actually means.
Thank you for making your position abundantly clear. The next time I see a widow, I will parse whether she got that way from being stupid. I'd never considered that before.
 
Old 10-27-2018, 03:51 PM
 
Location: NY in body, Mayberry in spirit.
2,556 posts, read 1,629,965 times
Reputation: 5837
Quote:
Originally Posted by harry chickpea View Post
You are young, so I take your question as a legitimate one rather than trolling. In short, "man" and "woman" are not scientific words, any more than "English" or "American" have "scientific" definitions. When I was working at hospital when I was a teenager, there was a patient there that was a hermaphrodite. That illumination pretty much ended any nonsense I might have had about black and white sexual delineations. From that point on, the sputterings of uneducated preachers, homophobes, and politicians were amply apparent to me as "wishful thinking and personal feelings."
Arent we impressed with ourself!
 
Old 10-27-2018, 04:11 PM
 
Location: Westwood, MA
3,474 posts, read 4,362,492 times
Reputation: 4477
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasBard79 View Post
Wow, over 10,000 years of human history and human philosophy is somehow wrong just because Human Society suddenly changed and some incredible enlightenment has uniquely occurred within the last 10 years.
Things are either wrong or they aren't. Egyptians believed Pharaoh was a literal God on Earth for thousands of years. Didn't mean they were right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasBard79 View Post
There have always been hermaphrodites... though nowadays the fluidity of gender identity is such that you can change genders, or have none at all with only a signature to a doctor and find a nonprofit willing to spend $10,000 to reassign you to the desired gender. $10,000 by the way that would match the total income of a total SSDI dependent...
I'm guessing you've never known a transgender person. I live in Massachusetts, arguably the most pro-LGBT state in the nation, and it's tough for them here. Maybe in Texas people undergo gender reassignment surgery at the drop of a hat, but it's a laborious process up here. I don't think anyone would go through with it 'just cause'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasBard79 View Post
You can't hold up Hermaphrodites as the primary reason a person can wake up one day and decide "Maybe I want to be like a woman" when their **** argues with them every time they walk into a convenience store and see a 30ish woman bent over to look at the bottom of the cooler for a quart of Milk... especially the kind of women who would wear almost nothing and the side of her areole hangs out of some strategically placed piece of masking tape... and your stomach growls at the suggestion, so you go over to serendipitously get a bottle of Promised Land, or HEB if you're broke enough for something not so creamy and satisfying. That's when you get nailed for sexual harassment when you notice the tape slip off, and you end up on the floor with a lump on the head, and a lump somewhere else. Denied... and if you can't get something that sleezy, you're thinking maybe you just plain aren't manly enough. So it's over to the magazine rack for a Hustler magazine, and a bottle of lotion... and in the confusion you start to wonder about PlayGirl. Now you're curious... because someone told you enough that you weren't manly.
Who replace the science forum with Letters to Penthouse?


Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasBard79 View Post
Such men might consider the world of hard-up women... like Cougars, Bi-Sexual Dykes, Ex-Convicts, Drug Addicts, Widowed Retiree's, and rehabilitated Prostitutes... all of which just plain want someone to not leave home and not leave them to die alone. But women like that often leave me divided. You should feel sympathy and love for those in need, but if you know that women like that put themselves in those kind of situations out of their own stupidity, particularly if she's ruined by an uncurbable venereal disease then you should consider the expiration date on the jug and remember that the long removed sticker says "IF SEAL IS BROKEN, DO NOT USE." So you take those As-Is, and remember that the transmission slips sometimes and they might be a little higher on matinance than most others on the car lot, decide if she's classy enough for the total restoration and bumper job that comes with a vintage vehicle. Before you know it you will be taking her to the car show and showing her off to everyone's envy. She might even make it to the magazine cover. But you'll always need to handle a little more gently, and repairs are more expensive.
Who replaced Letters to Penthouse with this Chick Tract?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasBard79 View Post
Or maybe it's just simpler than that. Tell boys they are boys and kick around abusive dads who call their little boys "Girlie" for liking musical Insturments instead of a football, or liking to paint instead of roll in the mud. Growing up that way as the sensitive guy but athletic enough to not be totally gone got me laid plenty of times. The girl of your dreams is the one that relates to you and isn't just looking at your penis size or your car, or money - she'll be out the door faster than you can say "WARTS" when that all goes away. Rather, the way you call her boss when she's cramping and make sure she's OK for that once a month ache before you head for work. Women like that will wait for you to get in the shower and aches pains and all for a rehash of Bon Jovi's "Slippery when Wet." A woman like that, no matter how imperfect is the kind of woman who keep. Your best friend... in the opposite side of the isle.
And now it's a Bon Jovi video.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasBard79 View Post
But this all goes out the window when people just don't think about what matters, and that's consistent definitions in society from a young age on where right and wrong, and what human language actually means.
Or maybe your definition of what's important about right and wrong is just different than theirs? Also, this is way way way off topic now.

Last edited by jayrandom; 10-27-2018 at 05:39 PM..
 
Old 10-27-2018, 04:13 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
3,084 posts, read 1,040,161 times
Reputation: 3942
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayrandom View Post
Things are either wrong or they aren't. Egyptians believed Pharaoh was a literal God on Earth for thousands of years. Didn't mean they were right.
Well, to be fair, they got to Cleopatra and said, "Hey, when did God become a Greek?"
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