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Old 10-31-2018, 05:11 PM
 
9,841 posts, read 13,932,158 times
Reputation: 10729

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Well, to be true, there is very little difference in anatomy between male and female bodies.
Both have breasts. Significant number of males dies to breast cancer. There are known cases of male lactation.

Both have penis, as clitoris is exactly that.
Both have testicles, they are simply a bit different positioned and functioned in female body.

Male body does not have uterus and its extension, vagina.

That's about it. If you were to refer to external, physical characteristics.
You likely heard expression - what man has outside, woman has inside.

I'd narrow it down to - physically - as female is a human capable of pregnancy. That's about it.

Now, if you were to get into the REAL differences.... that will be the essence of a person.

Male is Desire.
Female is Feeling.

In and Yan. It's the desire, or male attribute, that makes person a male. It's a Feeling, or female attribute, that makes a person a female.
Regardless of what body that person is in. I have no doubt you met plenty of variations in your life.

 
Old 10-31-2018, 11:46 PM
 
Location: Old Hippie Heaven
16,266 posts, read 7,125,741 times
Reputation: 9255
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
Well, to be true, there is very little difference in anatomy between male and female bodies.
Both have breasts. Significant number of males dies to breast cancer. There are known cases of male lactation.

Both have penis, as clitoris is exactly that.
Both have testicles, they are simply a bit different positioned and functioned in female body.

Male body does not have uterus and its extension, vagina.

That's about it. If you were to refer to external, physical characteristics.
You likely heard expression - what man has outside, woman has inside.

I'd narrow it down to - physically - as female is a human capable of pregnancy. That's about it.

Now, if you were to get into the REAL differences.... that will be the essence of a person.

Male is Desire.
Female is Feeling.

In and Yan. It's the desire, or male attribute, that makes person a male. It's a Feeling, or female attribute, that makes a person a female.
Regardless of what body that person is in. I have no doubt you met plenty of variations in your life.
Um, you don't know what you're talking about - literally.

The scientific definition of male/female is very simple - females produce ova, males produce sperm. That's true for both plants and animals. I can't imagine why you think that a male gingko tree, for instance, has feelings that cause it to self-identify as a male.
 
Old 11-01-2018, 12:22 PM
 
15,762 posts, read 13,191,044 times
Reputation: 19651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
Which is the accurate scientific basis for making the distinction. To quote something I heard somewhere, "it's not a choice."
I said literally NOTHING about choice. That is your ASSUMPTION. There is also the anatomical definition of sex, aka what external genitalia a person possesses. These two perfectly scientific definitions are as often at odds with each other as the difference species concepts are.


Quote:
The literature largely disagrees with you; that such bearers of genetic abnormality resemble women in some physical characteristics does not make them women. (That they very likely choose to identify as female is not scientific, which is the specific question here, not a general discussion of gender identity.)
Many AIS women are completely physically female and only find out they have undeveloped testes where their ovaries should be when they experience fertility issues or to address amenorrhea.
 
Old 11-01-2018, 12:33 PM
 
15,762 posts, read 13,191,044 times
Reputation: 19651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora View Post
Take it up with science. That' how science defines gender and there is a very valid scientific reason for doing so.
No it isn't. It is one of the definitions of sex. There is also the anatomical definition. External genitalia is a perfectly acceptable definition for sex. And like many definitions, genetic definition and anatomical definition can conflict.

Quote:
In placental mammals, the presence of a Y chromosome determines gender.
Show me some credible science links that support this claim.
We are talking about sex not gender.

Here are several articles that call women with AIS, meaning they are genetically XY, "female".

Oakes, Meghan B., Aimee D. Eyvazzadeh, Elisabeth Quint, and Yolanda R. Smith. "Complete androgen insensitivity syndrome—a review." Journal of pediatric and adolescent gynecology 21, no. 6 (2008): 305-310.

"This review paper highlights important diagnostic and therapeutic concerns for girls with Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (CAIS). CAIS is an androgen receptor defect disorder associated with vaginal and uterine agenesis in women with a 46,XY karyotype. "

Hashmi, Asra, Farah Hanif, Shumaila Muhammad Hanif, Farhan Essa Abdullah, and Muhammad Shahid Shamim. "Complete androgen insensitivity syndrome." J Coll Physicians Surg Pak 18, no. 7 (2008): 442-444.

"The incidence of Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (CAIS) is about 1 in 20,000. People with CAIS are normal appearing females, despite the presence of testes and a 46, XY chromosome constitution. We came across a case in which a 17 years old girl presented with the complaint of inguinal hernia and amenorrhea"

Wisniewski, Amy B., Claude J. Migeon, Heino FL Meyer-Bahlburg, John P. Gearhart, Gary D. Berkovitz, Terry R. Brown, and John Money. "Complete androgen insensitivity syndrome: long-term medical, surgical, and psychosexual outcome." The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism 85, no. 8 (2000): 2664-2669.

"We have assessed by questionnaire and medical examination the physical and psychosexual status of 14 women with documented complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS)."
 
Old 11-01-2018, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Westwood, MA
3,474 posts, read 4,362,492 times
Reputation: 4477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora View Post
Take it up with science. That' how science defines gender and there is a very valid scientific reason for doing so.

In placental mammals, the presence of a Y chromosome determines gender.
Show me some credible science links that support this claim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora View Post
This editorial sounds like nothing but politics.

I certainly don't find this article convincing in that that there is a unified consensus of research scientists stating what you are claiming.
I'm confused why you continue to speak "for science" when you're directly contradicting the editors of Nature. Yours is a minority view among the scientific community, i.e. people who try to publish things in peer-reviewed journals.

I've provided links to an international medical organization and one of the highest impact factor journals in the world. If you can't be convinced by the WHO or Nature, I don't think you can be convinced. Do you have an authoritative and recent citation of your assertion that "science defines gender by chromosomes"?
 
Old 11-01-2018, 04:39 PM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 °N, 🌄°W
10,085 posts, read 4,161,649 times
Reputation: 6371
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayrandom View Post
I'm confused why you continue to speak "for science" when you're directly contradicting the editors of Nature.
What exactly did I contradict?

All you posted was a political sounding editorial. I did not see a huge consensus of scientists claiming what you are trying to sell.

Stop trying to politicize science.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayrandom View Post
Yours is a minority view among the scientific community, i.e. people who try to publish things in peer-reviewed journals.
Mine is no such thing. In fact I stand by well established science vs. going with opinions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayrandom View Post
I don't think you can be convinced.
What is there to be convinced of? A political leaning editorial?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayrandom View Post
Do you have an authoritative and recent citation of your assertion that "science defines gender by chromosomes"?
There is no authoritative voice in science. There's only evidence from the research that's being conducted.

Sex chromosome evolution: historical insights and future perspectives

I suggest you take your emotional baggage and deal with it and stop attacking me over the science that I've posted to describe how sex is determined in humans.
 
Old 11-01-2018, 04:45 PM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 °N, 🌄°W
10,085 posts, read 4,161,649 times
Reputation: 6371
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
No it isn't. It is one of the definitions of sex. There is also the anatomical definition. External genitalia is a perfectly acceptable definition for sex. And like many definitions, genetic definition and anatomical definition can conflict.
Iv'e been over this already. Recall Genotype vs. Phenotype?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
We are talking about sex not gender.
I've been over this already.

See post # 55
 
Old 11-01-2018, 05:54 PM
 
15,762 posts, read 13,191,044 times
Reputation: 19651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora View Post
Iv'e been over this already. Recall Genotype vs. Phenotype?
I've been over this already.

See post # 55
You asked for sources. They contradict your opinion. You ignored them. That is bad science.

The point is there is a genotypic definition and a phenotypic definition. Some people meet one definition and not the other.

Oh, and you don’t speak for “science”.
 
Old 11-01-2018, 05:57 PM
 
15,762 posts, read 13,191,044 times
Reputation: 19651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora View Post
There is no authoritative voice in science. There's only evidence from the research that's being conducted.
And you utterly and completely ignored the fact that published, peer reviewed scientists consider genetically male but anatomically female people with complete AIS to be WOMEN.

It is hypocritical at best to pretend you are interested in research and then ignore it. Academic dishonest is a no no.
 
Old 11-01-2018, 06:17 PM
 
Location: Somewhere in northern Alabama
16,863 posts, read 51,384,651 times
Reputation: 27750
PLEASE avoid going towards personal attack in this thread. It is fascinating, the divergent views are top notch, and the subject matter is important.
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