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Old 05-01-2009, 06:02 PM
 
Location: So. Cal
277 posts, read 551,629 times
Reputation: 168

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tek_Freek View Post
And a couple of years ago a team that set off to sail across the arctic in the summer months expected to have difficulty; the same difficulty they had two years previous. They had to turn back because of a preponderance of ice.

Well, that didn't happen on their second trip. There was so little ice in the same areas that they sailed across with no difficulty.

It all depends.....
Looks like Arctic Ice is doing OK to me.
http://nsidc.org/data/seaice_index/i...timeseries.png
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Old 05-01-2009, 06:25 PM
 
Location: Maryland not Murlin
8,188 posts, read 21,767,384 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaptruder View Post
Global climate change is the more accurate term for the increasingly devastating climate phenomenon affecting the planet.
This is exactly what global warming affects, and why it could be disastrous to our planet. Portions of the planet will still receive snow. Portions will still get a$$-freezing cold. Etc. However, when the climate changes, so will the weather. This last winter saw snow fall in portions of the Southern States that generally do not receive snow, or very little of it when they do. Big whoop dee do, you say? Well, the arrival of snow or colder winters in those areas will have disasterous affects on crops. And crops are vital not only to the economy, but to our very existence.

That's just an example. THe planet heating up by one or two or five degrees may not seem like a big deal, but keep in mind that the average planetary temp raising this much will greatly affect weather patterns, which in turn will affect climate.

As an aside:

Weather is what is happening RIGHT NOW.
Climate is the average weather happenings over a period of time (usually the last 20 to 30 years).
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Old 05-02-2009, 07:58 AM
 
Location: So. Cal
277 posts, read 551,629 times
Reputation: 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Luv View Post
Weather is what is happening RIGHT NOW.
Climate is the average weather happenings over a period of time (usually the last 20 to 30 years).
So maybe if we knew what the Arctic Ice was like 50 tears ago we could see a difference with today.
Ice at the North Pole in 1958 and 1959 - not so thick Watts Up With That?

Wow look how thin the ice was 50 years ago. Maybe sooner or later people will catch on that all this global warming hysteria is just a way to grab more money from the people. Oh and calling it global climate change is just a cop-out so the scientist pushing this don't look so stupid when life goes on just fine.

Name 3 clear signs of the coming Thermageddon Watts Up With That?
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Old 05-02-2009, 08:21 AM
 
Location: So. Cal
277 posts, read 551,629 times
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The people in the Catlin Arctic Survey are running out of food because the weather is so bad they can't get a re-supply flight in. There claims of thinner Ice in the arctic don't hold up either.
Translated version of http://www.radiobremen.de/wissen/nachrichten/wissenawipolararktis100.html=

And if you are worried about Antarctica, it is a nice toasty -91F there at the Vostok station today.
Vostok, Antarctica Forecast : Weather Underground
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Old 05-02-2009, 07:04 PM
 
Location: Maryland not Murlin
8,188 posts, read 21,767,384 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayneb View Post
So maybe if we knew what the Arctic Ice was like 50 tears ago we could see a difference with today.
Ice at the North Pole in 1958 and 1959 - not so thick Watts Up With That?

Wow look how thin the ice was 50 years ago. Maybe sooner or later people will catch on that all this global warming hysteria is just a way to grab more money from the people.

Name 3 clear signs of the coming Thermageddon Watts Up With That?
You are using pictures from fifty years ago to prove your point!? That is just as ridiculous as someone using the movie An Inconvenient Truth to prove that global warming is happening. Neither is valid for an argument.

As for the thin ice...Anomalies happen and the navies of the world have been poking through the arctic ice pack for almost as long as there have been submarines, not to mention ice-breakers have been clearing a path for ships to travel for what, two centuries now.

As for the 3 Clear Sings....those comments are based on opinion not fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayneb View Post
The people in the Catlin Arctic Survey are running out of food because the weather is so bad they can't get a re-supply flight in. There claims of thinner Ice in the arctic don't hold up either.
Translated version of http://www.radiobremen.de/wissen/nachrichten/wissenawipolararktis100.html=

And if you are worried about Antarctica, it is a nice toasty -91F there at the Vostok station today.
Vostok, Antarctica Forecast : Weather Underground
There will always be anomalies in weather and like I said previously, even if global warming is happening there will still be areas of the planet that are bum-freezing cold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayneb View Post
Oh and calling it global climate change is just a cop-out so the scientist pushing this don't look so stupid when life goes on just fine.
This shows ignorance on your part for two reasons:

1) Science "facts" that we know of today may be proven wrong tomorrow by new science "facts". This is the scientific process and every formally educated scientists knows this. That is what keeps innovation and thought moving in a forward direction. The only people that will look 'stupid' are those laymen who take everything that they hear on the news as facts.

2) Like I said, weather is what is currently happening right now, climate the weather condition based on the daily average weather over a span of at least two decades. Now, if the average temperature of the planet increases, so will the temp. of the oceans. In case you are not aware of it, weather patterns are directly related to the temperature of the oceans. If the ocean temps raise, then weather patterns would change as well, likewise changing the climate(s). So yes, global warming would be global climate change. Besides, which one sounds less threatening?
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Old 05-02-2009, 08:40 PM
 
Location: So. Cal
277 posts, read 551,629 times
Reputation: 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Luv View Post
You are using pictures from fifty years ago to prove your point!? That is just as ridiculous as someone using the movie An Inconvenient Truth to prove that global warming is happening. Neither is valid for an argument.
The pictures prove that the Ice being thin lately is nothing unusual, it has happened in the past before, big deal. Global warming alarmist keep saying these events are unprecedented.

Not only did this story by ABC News turn out to be wrong, The Arctic sea Ice extent right now is about the same as the 1979-2000 average.
Arctic's First Ice-Free Summer Possible Even This Year - ABC News


Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Luv View Post
As for the 3 Clear Sings....those comments are based on opinion not fact.
Actually, the story is really 10 myths about Global warming and refutes claims made by the Global warming alarmist. All the claims have references cited.


Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Luv View Post
There will always be anomalies in weather and like I said previously, even if global warming is happening there will still be areas of the planet that are bum-freezing cold.
Yes that is true, too bad the earth is actually in a cooling phase now, so all the claims about the temps rising out of control due to Anthropogenic Global warming just don't hold water. The truth is, the climate models being used are no better than a guess.


Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Luv View Post
This shows ignorance on your part for two reasons:

1) Science "facts" that we know of today may be proven wrong tomorrow by new science "facts". This is the scientific process and every formally educated scientists knows this. That is what keeps innovation and thought moving in a forward direction. The only people that will look 'stupid' are those laymen who take everything that they hear on the news as facts.

If someone believed something to be true and it turns out that it wasn't, it was never a fact, it was a theory. The problem with the global warming alarmist is that there is so much evidence against their ridiculous claims
that they ignore.
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Old 05-03-2009, 05:48 PM
 
3,778 posts, read 7,234,679 times
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I just read the current issues of some of most respected magazines such as National Geographics and Scientific American. All have articles about the ice melting due to global warming.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20...ealy/funk-text

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...ggers-landgrab

I believe it. The great thing about the internet is people can research the facts for themselves.
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Old 05-04-2009, 09:30 PM
 
Location: Maryland not Murlin
8,188 posts, read 21,767,384 times
Reputation: 6116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayneb View Post
The pictures prove that the Ice being thin lately is nothing unusual, it has happened in the past before, big deal. Global warming alarmist keep saying these events are unprecedented.
Salt water has a lower freezing point (which is why we salt roads in areas where it snows). The Arctic ocean is slightly less saline than the other oceans. But, the oceans as a whole act as one giant circulatory system. It is possible that every once in a while a batch of seawater with a higher salinity washed into the area. One of the reasons why the Arctic Ocean is less saline is because of the seasonal melting of the ice, not only from ocean ice, but from the run-off from the land the encircles the Arctic Ocean. The North Pole, also, does not receive much precipitation, so the ice that forms is from sources that are already at sea-level.

The average depth of sea-ice in the Arctic changes from year to year and by location. Some areas are just thicker than others. The only thing that the picture proves is that the ice was thin enough at that particular location at that particular time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayneb View Post
Not only did this story by ABC News turn out to be wrong, The Arctic sea Ice extent right now is about the same as the 1979-2000 average.
Arctic's First Ice-Free Summer Possible Even This Year - ABC News
Once again, an anomaly, perhaps. The only way to know for sure is to see what things are like fifty or one hundred years from now.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayneb View Post
Actually, the story is really 10 myths about Global warming and refutes claims made by the Global warming alarmist. All the claims have references cited.
Yeah, I know that it is 10 myths, the link is entitled Name 3 Clear Signs...Since I was referring to the link I assumed that you would have made the connection.

Watt does refute the ten 'myths', but he does so with opinion. He picks and chooses what to source as fact just as the alarmist do. Any piece of information can be twisted to fit any view-point. For example, I do not believe that gnomes exists, but I sure as heck can create a blog and source countless articles and other information to prove that they do. Anyone can be a spin doctor. Without reading the journal papers that led to articles that he picked through to find supporting evidence for his point of view there is no way of knowing what the original papers were about.

Now, before I go any further I should add that I do not necessarily disagree with you. There are definitely some whack-jobs on the alarmist side, just like there are whack-jobs on the other. My issue is when someone form either side blindly accepts something that they read as fact without having any real knowledge of the situation. Is global warming happening? Hell if I know. The problem is that no-one knows for certain. At least 100%. That goes both ways. Just like you claim that there is evidence that global warming is not happening, there is evidence that it is. If it is happening, we are living it. It is happening right now, and thus won't really be able to fully view it until after the fact. If it is happening, I don't wait to until it is too late to find out. You mentioned something to the effect of scientists feeling stupid once they realize that they are wrong. Are you going to feel stupid if it turns out that you are wrong?






Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayneb View Post
Yes that is true, too bad the earth is actually in a cooling phase now, so all the claims about the temps rising out of control due to Anthropogenic Global warming just don't hold water. The truth is, the climate models being used are no better than a guess.
The cooling phase was an idea that was brought up in the 1970's. To my knowledge it was just an idea proposed by someone that the media grabbed ahold of and ran with it (as the media usually does). I'll have to do some research onto this as it has been awhile since I first heard it and am a bit rusty on the topic. So I'll leave it at that.

Models are only as good as the information that is fed into them. No one on planet Earth has first hand experience of what global-warming is all about, so any model is going to have that as a handicap. You also need to keep in mind that these models generally tend to produce a worst-case scenario (there are a few that are producing a best-case scenario) and they run on a business-as-usual functionality. By that I mean laboratory experiments are always favorable to the experiment at hand. Anyone with two brain cells should be able to recognize that things do not always happen as planned (a weather forecast, for example). Things change. Sh*t happens. Anomalies will always happen that will through a monkey wrench into what these models produce. There is still the chance that they are correct, though.






Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayneb View Post
If someone believed something to be true and it turns out that it wasn't, it was never a fact, it was a theory. The problem with the global warming alarmist is that there is so much evidence against their ridiculous claims
that they ignore.
I put the word fact in quotation marks because once again, I figured you would get what I was alluding to with out having to explain the scientific process. I will stop making assumptions from now one.

First of all, it wouldn't be a theory, it would be a law (theories are the currently accepted explanation and is open to the possibility of a future revision when new equipment, testing methods, or understanding make it possible to expand on that theory or prove it wrong. A law is a theory that has been proven to be true time and time again from every possible angle and has been accepted as a universal truth (although there are some new ideas behind the Law of Gravity that is showing what is currently accepted is wrong, but that is science for you).

When someone comes up with an idea, they form a hypotheses. This hypothesis, the null hypothesis, is put through a test. During the test you are trying to prove your null hypothesis wrong (test to falsify), so you form an alternative hypothesis (if it is not A, than it is B, and so forth). The hypothesis has to be of a testable nature, so you can't say something like, Global warming is caused by aliens. When you test to falsify you are purposely trying to prove your hypothesis wrong. If you can't prove it wrong, then you are one step closer to it being right (as an aside, this is exactly why you cannot currently use science to prove that God, aliens, ghosts, or gnomes exists because science is currently unable to prove that they do not exists). This process is continued many times until the tester is satisfied that enough tests have been conducted to support the hypothesis. At this point a journal article is written and published in one of the various scientific journals for peer review. Other scientists pick up on it and conduct their own tests. Repeat, numerous times. Once thousands of tests have been performed the hypothesis becomes a theory. But remember, even a theory is still open to revision.

Now, with all of that, to my knowledge there is currently no one actively testing to prove global warming is not happening (because they might prove it to be happening in the process?), instead they are interrupting other data and reports to support their own ideas.

Another thing is that there is no one be-all-end-all tests that can be down to prove that global warming is happening. Instead, scientists choose to focus on a certain aspect that would support the idea that global warming is happening. Any one particular aspect is not enough to prove anything, so many smaller tests are done and the data from all of these are collected into one larger context supporting the main idea.
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Old 05-05-2009, 12:12 AM
 
Location: Interior Low Plateau
185 posts, read 357,723 times
Reputation: 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayneb View Post
So maybe if we knew what the Arctic Ice was like 50 tears ago we could see a difference with today.
Ice at the North Pole in 1958 and 1959 - not so thick Watts Up With That?
Dude, you quoted a master of woo woo that is known for "cherry picking" data that only fits his conclusions.
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Old 05-06-2009, 01:51 AM
 
154 posts, read 111,293 times
Reputation: 52
Global warming is bull***** and liberal brainwashing to get people to pay carbon taxes.
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