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Old 08-27-2009, 12:17 PM
 
Location: Tyler, TX
15,194 posts, read 17,692,612 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
The real "fix" is to grid power the roadway and let the electric cars pick their power up from the roadway. This is totally safe and costs less than 1/2 of the price of gasoline and all power would be from in US -- meaning no more imported oil (see why we are NOT doing this?). South Korea (Not US) is already working on the prototypes.
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Old 08-27-2009, 01:10 PM
 
5,092 posts, read 9,604,630 times
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cute pix, but I do not think you understand the issue.

Most miles driven in the US are daily miles in or near large cities, following that are highway miles, and finally relatively few rural miles. Many roads in rural areas have little to no traffic on any given day. They do not require coverage.

Have you seen typical Cell Phone area coverage maps? Early networks only hit the metro city areas, and then branched along highways -- leaving much of the rural area dark.

That is typical for new technology. As another example -- Much of the rural US can still only get dial up or satellite internet service.

Grid enabled roadways could follow the same start-up model in the US. First cities, then highways between. Even if cars were grid powered, they could still have a battery on board allowing them to reach 100 or miles or more beyond the grid powered highway, itself. Even farther, if hybrids.

That dense use model allows the areas that have dense use the chance to recovery any expenses very quickly, while reducing air pollution and oil use.

The only thing different in all this is that the cities, states and feds that own the roads could be making money from the "fuel" (electricity) rather than Transnational Oil Corporations.
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Old 08-27-2009, 01:52 PM
 
26,910 posts, read 38,152,457 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
Ummm, that would be a mechanical load on the other battery actually driving the car, running it down faster. Net would be less than zero.

The real "fix" is to grid power the roadway and let the electric cars pick their power up from the roadway. This is totally safe and costs less than 1/2 of the price of gasoline and all power would be from in US -- meaning no more imported oil (see why we are NOT doing this?). South Korea (Not US) is already working on the prototypes.
First, I like the electric grid idea. Wish someone here would get serious about it.


Would it? I am am a few decades away from high school Physics class so my memories may be fuzzy. Actually I'm on medication so I know they are!

Don't I recall that a spinning shaft inside a stationary circle of magnets creates electricity? If the two don't touch where is the drag/load?



Mods: I checked the license and it free to use as long as it is not modified.

Google Image Result for http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/Electric_motor_cycle_3.png
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Old 08-28-2009, 11:59 AM
 
5,092 posts, read 9,604,630 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tek_Freek View Post

Would it? I am am a few decades away from high school Physics class so my memories may be fuzzy. Actually I'm on medication so I know they are!

Don't I recall that a spinning shaft inside a stationary circle of magnets creates electricity? If the two don't touch where is the drag/load?
Maybe think of this as a systems level thing rather than a physics problem to start?

To try to take power from the drive shaft would take power from the drive shaft that is moving the car. So we would have:

1. First battery turns drive motor
2. Drive motor spins drive shaft.
3. Drive shaft turns both wheels and generator (added)
4 Generator produces energy for second battery.

Net effect is the energy is being drained from the first battery to the second battery with about 30% system losses along the way -- Net is negative.

On the other hand dynamic braking actually does recovery energy from the motion to recharge batteries while operating -- the primary electric motor(s) act as generators during braking, placing a load on the drive train slowing the wheels. But this does not require an additional generator, as the motors themselves do the worlk.
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Old 08-28-2009, 02:52 PM
 
Location: Home
1,483 posts, read 2,692,112 times
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Quote:
first deliveries of the $57,400 all-electric sedan

/me cries.
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Old 08-28-2009, 03:26 PM
 
Location: Home
1,483 posts, read 2,692,112 times
Reputation: 621
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
Maybe think of this as a systems level thing rather than a physics problem to start?

To try to take power from the drive shaft would take power from the drive shaft that is moving the car. So we would have:

1. First battery turns drive motor
2. Drive motor spins drive shaft.
3. Drive shaft turns both wheels and generator (added)
4 Generator produces energy for second battery.

Net effect is the energy is being drained from the first battery to the second battery with about 30% system losses along the way -- Net is negative.

On the other hand dynamic braking actually does recovery energy from the motion to recharge batteries while operating -- the primary electric motor(s) act as generators during braking, placing a load on the drive train slowing the wheels. But this does not require an additional generator, as the motors themselves do the worlk.
This is true. Just think of it this way, whatever energy you put in is all you can get out. There is no "perpetual motion" machine yet. If all you had to do was spin an axle to get electricity, then we would not need all these fuel-powered generators to make it. Something needs to push the wires through the magnetic field to generate a delta along it to get the electrons moving. That will be met with resistance (have you ever spun a small electric motor in your fingers? You feel resistance as the magnet passes pole-to-pole).

Anyway, I do not think the grid is feasable for a simple reason. It is expensive. Simply using electricity (it is not cathodic, but I forgit the term) to prevent corrosion on bridges is expensive, and that is relatively low voltage/power in a very small area (one overpass). trying to wire out an entire roadway with enough juice to charge or keep electrics running would be very hard, expensive to maintain and expensive to power.

What would work better would be those standard battery packs. Each vehicle could carry however many they wanted (1 for compacts, 2 for larger luxury and full sixed sedans, 3 for hauling trucks/pickups). If yor car wanted more boost than standard, they could include their own non-removable pack for some short-range power (extra voltage) but that is an engineering/design decision, not a standard.

What I DO agree with on here, very strongly, is what people are saying about style. Why does ever electric car have to be a cheap looking, underpowered econo-box? The hybids are bad this way too. Until they get to where the car gets people all tingly just from driving it (regardless of the mode of power) then you will simply not get people to drive it!

Hell, I am still waiting for a 200hp midsize sedan that gets more milage than my 15 year old V6 MX6!!! (2800lbs curb, 168 HP, 28 mpg highway). All I get is more power and poopy milage, or a little better milage, more weight and less HP!!!

IT'S BEEN 15 YEARS!!!!! You would THINK that you could get something better, but nope. All I can get is a rear-seat DVD player! :P

But that is another topic alltogether!


One final thought. As a city dweller, you would think they would try to cater a bit more to us as this is where you get the most milage boost on Hybrids and Electrics. I do not have a driveway or garage. I also do not have a 2000' extension cord (to my municipal garage). What about me? Where can I get a charge?
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Old 08-28-2009, 04:21 PM
 
26,910 posts, read 38,152,457 times
Reputation: 34844
Thank you for the information. I have forgotten a lot over the years. Use or lose it. I lost it!

I think that until there are enough electric cars on the roads to create demand your parking garage won't have a plug in for you. And there will be resistance to buy a plug in car by folks like you because the garage doesn't have a plug in available, so the parking garage owners won't....
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Old 08-29-2009, 06:48 AM
 
5,092 posts, read 9,604,630 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjahedge View Post

Anyway, I do not think the grid is feasable for a simple reason. It is expensive. Simply using electricity (it is not cathodic, but I forgit the term) to prevent corrosion on bridges is expensive, and that is relatively low voltage/power in a very small area (one overpass). trying to wire out an entire roadway with enough juice to charge or keep electrics running would be very hard, expensive to maintain and expensive to power.
I have done the math, it looks like it comes out fairly do-able and could be mostly powered by Renewal Sourced Generation. Whole lot to love in that.
I agree it is expensive -- but compared to the present total gasoline / diesel fuel costs it is relatively cheap -- about half. For that to make sense, you have to understand how much money we dump and waste in present motor fuels. We presently burn (and put into the air and water) an awful lot of money in the form of fuel waste.

Quote:

What would work better would be those standard battery packs. Each vehicle could carry however many they wanted (1 for compacts, 2 for larger luxury and full sixed sedans, 3 for hauling trucks/pickups). If yor car wanted more boost than standard, they could include their own non-removable pack for some short-range power (extra voltage) but that is an engineering/design decision, not a standard.
Batteries tend to be lossy -- less power out than in -- and there rises the matter of fuel tax that presently the sales of oil related fuel pays to cover the expenses of the roads, themselves. Since the batteries do not pay fuel tax, the highway revenue goes down. There is less money to maintain the roads. If the state, federal and local governments (who own the roads) are the folks metering electricity from the roadway, they can have a mark-up to maintain the road and replace the existing fuel tax for less energy/money cost than what the battery loses in the charge - discharge cycle.

Quote:

What I DO agree with on here, very strongly, is what people are saying about style. Why does ever electric car have to be a cheap looking, underpowered econo-box? The hybids are bad this way too. Until they get to where the car gets people all tingly just from driving it (regardless of the mode of power) then you will simply not get people to drive it!
I think that was Tesla Motors thinking, as well. Their roadster is considered pretty hawt. For all the NastyCar Race fans, I would like to see some electrics that would blow the doors off the present fuel cars, just so folks can get some idea how much ICE (internal combustion engine) cars suck compared to top end electric.

Quote:

One final thought. As a city dweller, you would think they would try to cater a bit more to us as this is where you get the most milage boost on Hybrids and Electrics. I do not have a driveway or garage. I also do not have a 2000' extension cord (to my municipal garage). What about me? Where can I get a charge?
Well, you make another good point -- just another reason I would like to by-pass the whole battery mess right up front.
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