I'm Black and was born in Seattle. Why was I? (Everett: credit, house)

[pirate_lafitte]

Originally Posted by ckhthankgod

Been there and done that. I went to a school that was around 93% White and actually had some White students question my "authenticity". Considering that my parents are from Mississippi and South Carolina, which are historically the Blackest states in the US due to being the biggest slave states and growing up in NY State, I learned to take things with a grain of salt. Same thing if Black people did it too.

I have had my own "authenticity" questioned as well. Some students(mainly white students) have actually made the "Carlton Banks" joke about me. After a while I learned why some people might do this. I think my current college courses have helped me figure this out. I think stereotypes are about social control. Stereotypes are basically painting everyone with a broad paintbrush. When someone doesn't fit that stereotype, said person sometimes falls into scrutiny. I feel it is a social control for this reason. Stereotypes often give people a reason not to think. When a person doesn't live to the stereotype, it will make other people think. Certain people have to rethink what they learn. For some people, they don't want to think outside of their way of thinking and when they see someone who doesn't fit the stereotype, they can't say "See, all of them act like that" and/or use it as a reason to discriminate. It sounds crazy and screwed up, but it doesn't have to be logical to be true. The best way to fight a stereotype is to be yourself rather than to play into a role someone wants you to play into.

[tindo80]

Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte

I must have grown up differently. I never found that much hatred in Texas. Maybe it was location. I was living in the DFW metroplex. Everything you described, well, the closest I have see to that I have seen it in Georgia . I used to live in Washington myself. I can honestly say I would go back if I could.

Odd you mention that, I actually have heard from friends from Atlanta that georgia is actually much better and more tolerant (racially, religiously and orientation) than Texas. It may just be an exposure thing.

I nearly forgot another big divider is politics. Republicans hate, nearly (and sometimes) to the point of violence democrats and greens, and once upon a time libertarians. Democrats loath Republicans and consider them all but 'evil'. Below the belt attacks are standard. In WA, the democrats and republicans actually believe in their own doctrines, and seem not to be party/family/social/ethnic group followers. It makes the politics feel more genuine and not anger or hate based.

There are definite exceptions...Austin is a big one, El Paso is another...probably 2/3 of houston (sans suburbs). But for the most part, its really really bad down there, in my experience growing up there.

The funny thing is, they (all groups there) are not only convinced so heavily that its not so bad there, they actually think its better in Texas than others places. Talk about insular mindsets. You would not believe the arguments I have had with family over this topic. And dont even bother bringing it up in a conversation with other texans.

[pirate_lafitte]

Originally Posted by tindo80

Odd you mention that, I actually have heard from friends from Atlanta that georgia is actually much better and more tolerant (racially, religiously and orientation) than Texas. It may just be an exposure thing.

I nearly forgot another big divider is politics. Republicans hate, nearly (and sometimes) to the point of violence democrats and greens, and once upon a time libertarians. Democrats loath Republicans and consider them all but 'evil'. Below the belt attacks are standard. In WA, the democrats and republicans actually believe in their own doctrines, and seem not to be party/family/social/ethnic group followers. It makes the politics feel more genuine and not anger or hate based.

There are definite exceptions...Austin is a big one, El Paso is another...probably 2/3 of houston (sans suburbs). But for the most part, its really really bad down there, in my experience growing up there.

The funny thing is, they (all groups there) are not only convinced so heavily that its not so bad there, they actually think its better in Texas than others places. Talk about insular mindsets. You would not believe the arguments I have had with family over this topic. And dont even bother bringing it up in a conversation with other texans.

The city of Atlanta, perhaps, but many of the suburbs are not that nice and many parts of Georgia aren't that nice either. I have experienced more prejudice and problems in Georgia than anywhere else I have lived. I guess that might have to do with why I have a different view. My own family's experience wit the Pacific Northwest was actually quite nice. My father wishes he stayed.

[tindo80]

Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte

The city of Atlanta, perhaps, but many of the suburbs are not that nice and many parts of Georgia aren't that nice either. I have experienced more prejudice and problems in Georgia than anywhere else I have lived. I guess that might have to do with why I have a different view. My own family's experience wit the Pacific Northwest was actually quite nice. My father wishes he stayed.

I cant understand that. I have little to no experience in GA (only having visited once, and only atlanta at that), so you may be right.

The PNW is the best part of the country in my opinion. The one drawback is probably the main reason why anyone leaves in the first place...decent career-path jobs are hard to come by and easily laid off over the years in cycles. Plus the trend for housing costs seems to always be on the rise.

Needless to say, if you can get established out there, its a safe bet never to leave.

Hell, just talking about it is reminding me to maybe make a few visits and try to get some networking done before I finish school.

[pirate_lafitte]

Originally Posted by tindo80

I cant understand that. I have little to no experience in GA (only having visited once, and only atlanta at that), so you may be right.

The PNW is the best part of the country in my opinion. The one drawback is probably the main reason why anyone leaves in the first place...decent career-path jobs are hard to come by and easily laid off over the years in cycles. Plus the trend for housing costs seems to always be on the rise.

Needless to say, if you can get established out there, its a safe bet never to leave.

Hell, just talking about it is reminding me to maybe make a few visits and try to get some networking done before I finish school.

I think the PNW is good for those who own businesses or specialize in some kind of visual art, writing, or music. Seattle is also a place for technonlogy. I just hope the job market picks up. As of now, I am in no condition to move anywhere.

[tindo80]

Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte

I think the PNW is good for those who own businesses or specialize in some kind of visual art, writing, or music. Seattle is also a place for technonlogy. I just hope the job market picks up. As of now, I am in no condition to move anywhere.

Depending if things get turned around here soon, there is hope. I would not look too much to the '2nd wave' of Northwestern industry, the IP/Technology market though. It will have to be something utterly new.

One thing I am looking forward to that will bring jobs if it ever happens in real life (probably not, but possibly) is the whole hi speed rail being proposed along I90/I94.

The building of the old trains was a massive source of employment and economic boost to various parts of the nation back in the day. The same happened again with the construction of the Interstate highways. Hopefully this will be another incentive boost.

[LookinForMayberry]

First, thanks to the OP for starting this thread. There are so many layers of contributing factors to the relations between people that it was bound to become complicated.

I'm certain you didn't expect to have it evolve into such a broad commentary of social dynamics, but in that regard, it's fascinating.

Sorry (in advance) for being so long winded in this post, but whenever I, as a white, start sharing my experiences with someone not white, I try to explain a bit about myself, so I don't sound like the pontificating, pompous persons that say "Some of my best friends are ...."

Okay, so, I'm white -- female, 53 yr old. I grew up in Michigan in a very prejudiced county, but my parents didn't behave any differently to the ONE black couple (that happened to live next to our small community market), so I never knew they were different from us.

(I still recall asking Mrs. Tim if they'd been burned as children, because I couldn't figure out why their skin was so much darker than mine, but that's another story.)

Which brings my first question -- what is it about our collective society that makes blacks feel like they have to present a given collective black identity, when whites only concern themselves with who they are as individuals? Is that "duality" (assuming blacks also have the individual expression) imposed by the social bigotry, or a cultural manifestation inherent to African-Americans, because of a loss of cultural roots? Or something completely different?

Second, the post started on Seattle and Atlanta, but what is being described I've witnessed in all the communities I've lived, since leaving that small town. My junior high school was half black, half Hispanic, and my favorite teacher was a black man. Strangely, my class mates reviled him and called him Mr. Oreo. (I forget his name, but that wasn't it.)

My black classmates were mostly multi-generational ADA recipients, and the girls were looking forward to having babies, to add to the family income, the boys were refining their skills with sharpened weapons -- the halls were pretty exciting places to be, for a hick girl! Those that were doing well in our classes would talk "white" in class, and "black" in the halls.

I was stupid enough to think this was a way for ME to fit in, and tried talking "black" in class -- and nearly got myself sliced after school. I never made THAT mistake, again.

So, was "Mr. Oreo" called that because he had money, because he was educated, or because he was a black person who had achieved authority in a "white" world? Or, something else?

Anyway, I lived in Seattle -- NORTH Seattle, and was disappointed in how non-ethically diverse it was, but the areas you mentioned -- very diverse was not considered safe. My sister-in-law was from that area (3rd generation Asian-White), and from her descriptions of growing up there, it was about the same as my junior high experience in Michigan.

My point being that Seattle might be different from Atlanta in many ways, but relations between the different cultures, economic levels, and education levels seem to be pretty much the same everywhere I've been.

As for the comments about South v North, during our recent travels through the South, (from Texas to Florida, north through Georgia, including Atlanta, to Maine) I noticed that the blacks behaved MUCH differently toward me in the South, than I was used to in the north -- even with a heightened awareness my experiences have provided. For example, we got lost walking around LaFayette, LA and I stopped to ask a black postman for directions. He watched my feet while I spoke to him, and then spoke to my husband when he answered. Still uncertain, I asked another question, and the same thing happened, again???

Later, in Mobile, AL, while walking the streets, I realized that every single black person we met looked at our feet, and if we greeted them, which we stopped doing after awhile, we received a mumbled reply. It wasn't like I was carrying a gun or a whip.

Anyway, if you can help me understand the whys of those experiences, I think the answers will illuminate much of the questions you (OP) are seeking, as well.

In closing, I want to say that science has proven that the human race has less than a percent variation in our physical genetics -- at our core, we are all one people. Our different cultures, collective consciousness (including our guilts), and our economics are all minor variations on our human experiences -- (to be valued rather than reviled) that ADD to the vibrant textures of our lives, together and separately.

The more people like yourself ask these honest questions and others like the posters here answer with the same honesty, the better chance we learn to value our similarities and our differences. For that, and for any answers you can offer to my own questions, I thank you.

Best wishes.

[pirate_lafitte]

Originally Posted by LookinForMayberry

First, thanks to the OP for starting this thread. There are so many layers of contributing factors to the relations between people that it was bound to become complicated.


I'm certain you didn't expect to have it evolve into such a broad commentary of social dynamics, but in that regard, it's fascinating.

Sorry (in advance) for being so long winded in this post, but whenever I, as a white, start sharing my experiences with someone not white, I try to explain a bit about myself, so I don't sound like the pontificating, pompous persons that say "Some of my best friends are ...."

Okay, so, I'm white -- female, 53 yr old. I grew up in Michigan in a very prejudiced county, but my parents didn't behave any differently to the ONE black couple (that happened to live next to our small community market), so I never knew they were different from us.

(I still recall asking Mrs. Tim if they'd been burned as children, because I couldn't figure out why their skin was so much darker than mine, but that's another story.)

Which brings my first question -- what is it about our collective society that makes blacks feel like they have to present a given collective black identity, when whites only concern themselves with who they are as individuals? Is that "duality" (assuming blacks also have the individual expression) imposed by the social bigotry, or a cultural manifestation inherent to African-Americans, because of a loss of cultural roots? Or something completely different?

Second, the post started on Seattle and Atlanta, but what is being described I've witnessed in all the communities I've lived, since leaving that small town. My junior high school was half black, half Hispanic, and my favorite teacher was a black man. Strangely, my class mates reviled him and called him Mr. Oreo. (I forget his name, but that wasn't it.)

My black classmates were mostly multi-generational ADA recipients, and the girls were looking forward to having babies, to add to the family income, the boys were refining their skills with sharpened weapons -- the halls were pretty exciting places to be, for a hick girl! Those that were doing well in our classes would talk "white" in class, and "black" in the halls.

I was stupid enough to think this was a way for ME to fit in, and tried talking "black" in class -- and nearly got myself sliced after school. I never made THAT mistake, again.

So, was "Mr. Oreo" called that because he had money, because he was educated, or because he was a black person who had achieved authority in a "white" world? Or, something else?

Anyway, I lived in Seattle -- NORTH Seattle, and was disappointed in how non-ethically diverse it was, but the areas you mentioned -- very diverse was not considered safe. My sister-in-law was from that area (3rd generation Asian-White), and from her descriptions of growing up there, it was about the same as my junior high experience in Michigan.

My point being that Seattle might be different from Atlanta in many ways, but relations between the different cultures, economic levels, and education levels seem to be pretty much the same everywhere I've been.

As for the comments about South v North, during our recent travels through the South, (from Texas to Florida, north through Georgia, including Atlanta, to Maine) I noticed that the blacks behaved MUCH differently toward me in the South, than I was used to in the north -- even with a heightened awareness my experiences have provided. For example, we got lost walking around LaFayette, LA and I stopped to ask a black postman for directions. He watched my feet while I spoke to him, and then spoke to my husband when he answered. Still uncertain, I asked another question, and the same thing happened, again???

Later, in Mobile, AL, while walking the streets, I realized that every single black person we met looked at our feet, and if we greeted them, which we stopped doing after awhile, we received a mumbled reply. It wasn't like I was carrying a gun or a whip.

Anyway, if you can help me understand the whys of those experiences, I think the answers will illuminate much of the questions you (OP) are seeking, as well.

In closing, I want to say that science has proven that the human race has less than a percent variation in our physical genetics -- at our core, we are all one people. Our different cultures, collective consciousness (including our guilts), and our economics are all minor variations on our human experiences -- (to be valued rather than reviled) that ADD to the vibrant textures of our lives, together and separately.

The more people like yourself ask these honest questions and others like the posters here answer with the same honesty, the better chance we learn to value our similarities and our differences. For that, and for any answers you can offer to my own questions, I thank you.

Best wishes.

I will admit, at the age of five, the last thing that was on my mind living in Everett,WA was race or demographics. I just enjoyed life and the friends I had.
In response to your first question, I used to think that it was just pure ignorance. For some people it is ignorance. This is what I see. The underlying reason that I see is this. The thing in our collective society that makes blacks feel like they have to show a level of "blackness", well I think it is older than just the images I see on BET. To me it is a matter of economic and social control. Discrimination and stereotypes began for one big reason:control of resources. That is how prejudice started. It was a matter of the persons at the top controlling the resources and deciding who got what. For most of American history, blacks got little, if anything. Stereotypes came about because it was an easy way for people to say "hey, they're all like that, so lets control them and treat them like crap". There were so many minstrel shows in the early 20th century portraying blacks as "lazy", "stupid" and "shiftless". It was a way to give certain people an excuse to treat certain people badly and deprive them economically and socially. Fast forward to now. You see images of blacks being portrayed as "thuggish" in a sense. Whenever a black person comes along that doesn't fit that stereotype, such a person is either called "a credit to his race" at best, and at the worst, he or she is considered "not black enough". A black person can be vilified for living to the stereotype, and then vilified for not living to the stereotype. The difference is with living to the stereotype, some people feel it is easier to deal with a black person who lives to the stereotype than to deal with a person who doesn't. I think it is because it requires a person to rethink his or her thinking about the concept of race and ethnicity.

The second response, well, I have some experience with that. I lived in a metropolitan Atlanta county that was predominantly white, and rural, but the black population was steadily increasing as well as a population of people from other states. I was the "black kid who talked 'white' ". I fell under the sense of "feeling a need to act black". I changed my attire and my music because I thought I could be accepted. It didn't really work that well. I eventually quit and decided to dress the way I wanted to(I am a preppy type). I got vilified by some of the black kids as "not being black enough" and by some of the white kids who would frequently make Carlton Banks jokes. There was a kid in my school, who didn't even know me, who happened to be white. He said out of the blue "you're black, but you don't talk like it". To say the least I was a bit angry. To me, it was like he was saying "Because you are black, you have to talk a certain way". After a while, I just didn't care anymore because I didn't even want to live there anymore. I figure, "I don't live according to the stereotype. I do what I want and if other kids don't like it, they can go suck on a lemon". Personally, I think your teacher was referred to as "Mr. Oreo" because some of the kids didn't know what to make of such a person.

Your experiences in the South are a manifestation of the old days when the black population really was afraid of certain retribution for not adhering to the "black codes". The habits passed down and for many, this is considered a natural way of communicating. I think that the persons who hung their head down while you were talking to them did so because that is what they were taught. That came about because one of the "black codes" was that a black person had to act "subservient" when communicating with a white person.
My father is not from the South. He is from Wisconsin, born and raised. For that reason, his ways of communicating differ very vastly from the black people you encountered in the South. My father is going to look someone in the eyes. He is a product of parents who left the South to find better opportunities and a place where they wouldn't have to take crap from anyone. I think that is the difference. Many blacks in the North were there because of a feeling of not wanting to take crap from anyone. Many blacks in the South had to learn how to adapt to their environment and behave in certain ways.
I think the reason many people do not want to have such discussion is because it means dealing with the issues that are considered "taboo". It means telling the truth. We are all suppose to be human, but many humans don't believe as such, which is sad. I think the issue her is not only whether or not a person can be respected for his differences, but also, a matter of economic and social equality as well.

[LookinForMayberry]

Thank you, Pirate, for your honest, eloquent reply. I believe you were also correct in your first impression, that the basis is IGNORANCE. Ignorance between different groups (not just color) begets fear, and fear solidifies into prejudice. What humans fear, they tend to denigrate or mock. I tend to take a dim view of mockery in any form, because it is always at someone's expense.

I think what I read in your reply that most resonated with me is that we all form images in our minds of situations, and then try to make future situations fit into those images. It's so easy to make simple labels for complex situations, and then dismiss them -- so we don't have to consider them more fully. As an older woman, I've seen prejudice toward me, in a variety of ways. Prejudice of any flavor still hurts its victim, AND its perpetrator.

If I feel inferior to a circumstance, I may decide to turn my "weakness" into a strength, by banding with others that exhibit that same "weakness." I see that behavior a lot in today's world. People that feel "stupid" promote stupidity and absurd behavior (like the movie "Dumb and Dumber"). Older people begin segregating from the society that favors youth. Prejudice creates more segregation, more misunderstanding, more fear, more segregation.

I had a sense that in the South, there was a "throw-back" behavior, but I was thinking it was blacks' sensitivity to white guilt about the generations of wrongs done by their ancestors. It makes me feel worse that it is the blacks continued sense of conditioning to be subservient. Thanks for explaining, but I sure wish it would've been another reason...

Again, I think these exchanges will help clear up the misunderstandings. I hope so.

[LookinForMayberry]

Sorry to have to point this out to you, but much of Seattle is very racist. If you don't believe me, start traveling around the neighborhoods in North Seattle. You will be able to count the number of non-whites on one hand. In my 18 years in the area, less than 10% of the white-collar jobs were held by blacks or hispanics. You will see people of color in assembly lines, janitorial jobs, and landscaping, but few are directing the work of others.

Go to a play, a concert, a festival -- outside of the area south of downtown, you will see few blacks or hispanics. It is getting better, but they have a long, long way to go before you can honestly call them inclusive.