Official "Seattle Freeze" Discussion Thread (Pacific: pros and cons, discounts)

[PostJoyDivision]

Well, I'm a black woman and while living in Seattle, I never felt disrespected due to my race. People did not scurry out out of my way when I walked into a room, nor did they avoid passing me on the sidewalk, follow me in stores and all the other crazy crap racist people do. I have one year left of college before I move back to Seattle. I felt more accepted in my two years there than 21 years in Arizona, that is for sure.

I have no idea what race you are, got_rain?, but that sucks if you are "colored" (I hate that term because apparently white people are transparent. It's also I don't like being lumped into one huge category as "the other") and feel out of place in Seattle. I know first hand how horrible a feeling it is. If you are white, did hear about or witness the examples you listed? Just curious. Yes Seattle is a white majority city, but as someone mentioned about Chicago, diversity doesn't always equal racial harmony. I guess since I'm from a white majority and conservative/racist city, I maybe I overlooked racial issues in Seattle?

So, in your opinion, women should wear makeup? I am one that thinks makeup is indeed overrated, but I have nothing against anyone's decision to wear it because I occasionally do if going to a night club or something. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with a woman comfortable with her own natural beauty. Seriously. I'll take that over someone hiding behind a mask of tinted chemicals.

As far as people becoming defensive when someone bad mouths Seattle, I could picture the same thing happening in a city like Boston or any other city where the citizens hold some sense of pride. Hell, I've even found myself defending Phoenix from someone from the east coast. My point, most residents of any city don't like it when a transplant bad mouths their city.

I don't think most women have an issue with splitting a check. If she has her own money and wants to pay, why should this bother you? Being the first one to slap a credit card on the table doesn't make you a perfect gentleman. You should respect that that your date sees you as her equal and that she will probably be able to contribute a great deal financially to your relationship. There are a lot of "you" staments in this paragraph, and I don't mean to be rude but I don't undetstand how this is one of your major complaints.

[PollyGlott]

Originally Posted by PostJoyDivision

Well, I'm a black woman and while living in Seattle, I never felt disrespected due to my race. People did not scurry out out of my way when I walked into a room, nor did they avoid passing me on the sidewalk, follow me in stores and all the other crazy crap racist people do. I have one year left of college before I move back to Seattle. I felt more accepted in my two years there than 21 years in Arizona, that is for sure.
I have no idea what race you are, got_rain?, but that sucks if you are "colored" (I hate that term because apparently white people are transparent. It's also I don't like being lumped into one huge category as "the other") and feel out of place in Seattle. I know first hand how horrible a feeling it is. If you are white, did hear about or witness the examples you listed? Just curious. Yes Seattle is a white majority city, but as someone mentioned about Chicago, diversity doesn't always equal racial harmony. I guess since I'm from a white majority and conservative/racist city, I maybe I overlooked racial issues in Seattle?
So, in your opinion, women should wear makeup? I am one that thinks makeup is indeed overrated, but I have nothing against anyone's decision to wear it because I occasionally do if going to a night club or something. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with a woman comfortable with her own natural beauty. Seriously. I'll take that over someone hiding behind a mask of tinted chemicals.
As far as people becoming defensive when someone bad mouths Seattle, I could picture the same thing happening in a city like Boston or any other city where the citizens hold some sense of pride. Hell, I've even found myself defending Phoenix from someone from the east coast. My point, most residents of any city don't like it when a transplant bad mouths their city.
I don't think most women have an issue with splitting a check. If she has her own money and wants to pay, why should this bother you? Being the first one to slap a credit card on the table doesn't make you a perfect gentleman. You should respect that that your date sees you as her equal and that she will probably be able to contribute a great deal financially to your relationship. There are a lot of "you" staments in this paragraph, and I don't mean to be rude but I don't undetstand how this is one of your major complaints.

Very well said, PJD. I tried to rep you but couldn't.

[truthteller777]

I moved to Seattle from NYC about 15 years ago. One thing about Seattle that captures someone like me right away...if the sheer natural beauty of the region and the city period. Also Seattle is so green...and mountainous...really enchanting to the eyeballs and to the dreamer within! First off...I am a pretty liberal, people loving and gregarious guy from NY...who had a ton of friends in NY...and was rather popular amongst my peers. I am also a heavy lover of music....playing guitar myself...into hard rock....blues...jazz..etc....a real cool dude...really. And one helluva of likeable guy...who grew up poor in the housing projects with Mom..back in NYC...I have had many hardships in my life....and one thing I was always told from all my friends back east...was how much heart I had as a person.

So after being in the military for a little while...I got out and decided to try living in Seattle. I fell in love with the city like I said earlier. Also..note that I am a very masculine, deep voiced...straight guy of Italian descent as well with the heart of a Hippy though inside, and a loving soul.

So I move to Seattle....and I am loving it at first...then I try to meet people.....because I need people and I am very gregarious. What I have found in my years here in Seattle is that people are very similiar to those I found in North Dakota. Very guarded...hard to get to know.....insular...shy....mainly upper class sheltered Scandinavians..not much diversity at all amongst the whites. No Italians, Greeks, Jews, irish..and etc. Very little southern European presence. I also found that folks here were very civil, obedient, smart, intellectual, successful, career-minded, and well behaved in public.

As time went on....I started to get very frustrated..as the people I met were seemingly very hyper-sensitive, provincial, stand-offish....not approachable...the women were elitists, with big senses of entitlement..and seemingly only interested in advanced college degrees, worldly status, worldy prestige....and yet they do not appear that way on the outside. That is the troubling part. There sense of humor was very stern, politically correct and dull to me. There was little charisma to be found. Little personality. Very cookie cutter to me. But I still love people and I still tried...I reached out my hand a million times over...and what I got in return was apathy...time and time again.

I found there to be very little heart here in Seattle...too much head and too little heart. People spoke to you with restraint...they did not like gregarious souls engaging them. They were superficially polite...everywhere you go actually!! Women here were ultra demanding, and mainly concerned about money, status, education and things along those lines. They also do not date Italian, spanish, jewish, greeks...as that is not in their cultural scope here. The also prefer nerdy, yuppie types...geeks....or black men. Not much in between. It is in reality to me...the most close minded city for its size in America...second to Salt Lake City, Utah. Seattle is boring...the night life is the worst I have ever seen. The women in nightclubs here do not flirt...and they project their walls up....and clam up asap...as soon as they see you eyeballing them. It is a very non-flirtatious, and anti-sexual culture amongst the heterosexuals at least in Seattle. The women strictly look for the perfect marriage partner all the time. Even after their divorces. It is actually more rigid, stern and strict than Montgomery Alabama here when it comes to courting women.

The women and men here are good people...they are God's children...but they are made for one another...and they occasionally let someone from elsewhere slip in. This is also a very cerebral based, intellectualites town. Granola, yoga, alternative living lifestyles, vegetarianism, and etc..also rule the day here. Seattle is a rather provincial, smug, standoffish populace...that does not adhere to the meaning of the word respect as well....in the case of personal relationships. If someone stands you up in Seattle...do not criticize or confront them...they will rapidly abandon you here forever.

After 15 years...I have just one true friend here..and she is from Indiana. I have relocated since....and will say...that Seattle is not for the gregarious, people loving, transplant. The city itself is great...but the social climate...is the most brutal I have yet to experience...but the locals will rarely admit it.

[415_s2k]

Seattle isn't as diverse as other major cities, but it's definitely way, way, way less racist or segregated than other cities. After all... if you're not planning on socializing with your neighbors... who cares "what" they are??

Seriously, though, I feel as though Seattle is probably one of the least-racist towns around. Comparing it to Los Angeles, for instance... when I lived in LA, my first apartment was in the Latin part of Koreatown.

...

That's right. An ethnic-enclave-within-an-ethnic enclave. I always thought that it was fascinating that you had a strip of taquerias and carnicerias, a Mexican catholic church, and a few storefront evangelical churches, surrounded on all sides by Korean BBQ's, pool/karaoke halls, and churches, with block-by-block demographics to match.

The big difference is that you almost never saw a Mexican in a Korean pool hall, or a Korean in a taqueria. Blacks and Koreans have notoriously strained relations on a community-wide level down there, and the black and latin communities aren't well known for getting along super-well either. Although a very, very large swath of Los Angeles is absolutely impervious to this, and areas like Mar Vista, Venice, Culver City, Westchester, etc. tend to have extremely low-drama racial/cultural relations... you definitely don't want to be Mexican and on the street alone in certain parts of South LA, or black and on the streets alone in certain parts of East LA.

Seattle is definitely, absolutely much better integrated than LA, though it's definitely less diverse. If you talk to a Seattle homer, they'll tell you that the most diverse city in the US, and while they aren't, the fact that this is the attitude makes all the difference in the world. Compare someone saying, "I love how diverse it is here! I just love listening to this beautiful world music, trying cuisine from East Africa, and seeing people of all colors on the bus!" versus "Can't swing a fist without hitting a [insert ethnic group] here. I wish they'd stay in their own neighborhood."

Separate from this, though... to address PostJoyDivision's point about civic pride (BTW, if you haven't listened to Joy Division's Peel Sessions, you should), I was born in Seattle but consider myself a Bostonian since I spent my teens there and that's where my family settled after all was said and done. I am quite proud of Boston. Someone tells me they think Boston sucks... psh, whatever. Hell, I can actually see why people wouldn't like Boston; same with LA and SF, which are cities I've lived in and loved. Saying that you dislike Seattle, here, will open you up to some pretty out-there personal attacks.. probably the most eyebrow-raising was a suggestion that I kill myself. It's like you just insulted somone's mom or girlfriend. That's not pride, that's being a dick!

[truthteller777]

I think that Seattle is a very politically correct, well-behaved city for the most part.....and yea....different cultures may live side by side......but aint nobody inviting anyone over anytime soon..........there is much more subtle and silent judgment here than meets the eyes. Seattle is culturally that way to begin with. People are reserved, afraid to rock the boat, politically correct.....and the one thing that gets me the most...is when people say that Seattle and Portland are the most progressive cities in America. He-he....Seattle is still very white...and very Asian....African Americans 8%....Portland has 7% African Americans....compared to Chicago...52% AA's....and Cleveland at 38% AA's.....get my drift...this city is still very white. There are no real hard core ghettos in Seattle...no wonder people are seemingly so tolerant. Because they have never been exposed to real inner city life and living and that sort of environment to contend with. Seattle is pleasant-ville folks.....

[truthteller777]

I must say though...what Seattle will judge you on....is what sort of worldly credentials you possess...I assure you. In that subtle way.....master degrees will get you further in your social life efforts here.....so will being thin...and into holistic or alternative lifestyles...mark my words. Remember...this city is a cerebral town....hell bent on career and education.

I must say....it is no fun in Seattle...trying to date....walls are up high...and remember the word "uptight"...Seattle is saturated in uptightness......hehe....sure was social hell there.....I could remember the countless women over the years I would approach and be my comical, gregarious self.....only to get that apathetic look..and that cold rejection to follow...hehe....the Seattle Freeze...oh yea...its real.....

[lovingthegreen]

Originally Posted by truthteller777

and the one thing that gets me the most...is when people say that Seattle and Portland are the most progressive cities in America. He-he....Seattle is still very white...and very Asian....African Americans 8%....Portland has 7% African Americans....compared to Chicago...52% AA's....and Cleveland at 38% AA's.....get my drift...this city is still very white.

I think you missed the point others made. It's not about how many non-white people are here, it's how open-minded - "progressive" - people are in their general non-raicsm.

Originally Posted by truthteller777

There are no real hard core ghettos in Seattle...no wonder people are seemingly so tolerant. Because they have never been exposed to real inner city life and living and that sort of environment to contend with. Seattle is pleasant-ville folks.....

Maybe that's partly because of the general lack of racism in the first place. It seems to me that most hard-core ghettos were racially segregated - geographically and culturally - first before they became hard-core.

---

Of course no place is 100 percent one way or the other, but I have lived all over the country and have visited 46 states and in general here is one of the least racist areas I have ever been. You could argue why that is the case (i.e. no hard-core ghettos), but whatever the reasons are, it is very non-racist here.

[PostJoyDivision]

truthteller777:
If any none white person is refusing to move to Seattle based off of the city's racial/ethnic make up, then they need to grow up. They should be most concerned about the city's overall racial attitude. I would much rather live some where with less blacks but where I feel safe and accepted than a city with 52% blacks, that all live in one neighborhood, and will be met with disrespect if they venture out of that neighborhood. Seattleites are lucky to not have any hardcore ghettos in their city. The fact that they don't have the same inner city racial problems as cities such as Chicago, New York, LA, etc. can only be partly explained by the city's racial make up.

Also, maybe you should have changed your hangout spots where you are meeting these "elitist" women. When I lived there, men were so quick to tell that they worked for Microsoft, Amazon, or [insert any high tech or .com company here] which was a complete turn-off for me. So boring. A guy could hold any legal job, just as long as he isn't hitting me up for money. When I used to spend a lot of time in Scottsdale, AZ (a wealthy city east of Phoenix) guys did the same thing. In order to avoid these people, I switched up where I meet men. If you were only meeting women at high end bars or clubs or anything along those lines, you should have expected to meet women who expected that kind of man. I have no idea how old you are, truthteller777, but I am sure you could have come up with creative ways to meet more down to earth women during your 15 years there.

Wow, I'm starting to feel like the transplant exception here. When I told people I was from AZ out all places, they were actually pretty curious. I met quite a few people this way. Yes a few people made some snarky remarks, but I took the opportunity to educate them. I never got too seriously involved in any romantic relationships because I knew that I would be returning home to finish school, but I didn't have issues with meeting men. Being AA, I was a little nervous but found that people were easier to approach up there than here in AZ. For once in my entire life, people got my odd, funky personality and I didn't feel as though race dictacted my social relationships. When I move back, I plan to join a cooking class and maybe a social club to improve chances.

My point, the culture in Seattle is diffetent. No one can move here expecting to to be similar to New York, LA, whatever. That's not a fair comparison. You either adapt and find your way, or you become miserable and eventually move. Sorry if this post is a little rude, I just annoyed by people who move to PHX from SoCal and complain that it isn't anything like LA. Just seems like a lot of people are doing just that on this thread. Everyone deserves to be happy, but no one should blame an entire city's culture for their unhappiness.

[PostJoyDivision]

Sorry, I just need to quickly point this out. One of got_rain's complaints is that women are expected to split checks with their male partners while on a date, while truthteller777 believes that the women are demanding elitists that are concerned about how much money their male partner's make. Hmmmmm...

[TonyG5003]

Originally Posted by PostJoyDivision

truthteller777:
You either adapt and find your way, or you become miserable and eventually move. Sorry if this post is a little rude, I just annoyed by people who move to PHX from SoCal and complain that it isn't anything like LA. Just seems like a lot of people are doing just that on this thread. Everyone deserves to be happy, but no one should blame an entire city's culture for their unhappiness.

I agree completely. The problem here is that people project their own expectations onto others, and then gripe when those projections and expectations are not met - which is certainly not an issue limited to moving to a new city.

I think people need to "chill" about this "freeze." Quite frankly, as has been clearly demonstrated by the attitude of many posts, I'm thinking this "freeze" is a more of a self-fulfilling prophecy than an actual, measurable phenomenon. People are people - people are different. Stop trying to shape people to meet YOUR needs. Just be pleasant and polite, and go about your life. The rest will (eventually) fall into place.

And as far as splitting the checks on a date or not... just TALK about it, respect each other, and agree to do what feels natural at the time. Don't take it so personally.