Official "Seattle Freeze" Discussion Thread (Vancouver, Republic: unemployment, donate)

[NWSandbox]

Originally Posted by Seacove

I don't think Seattle is like the MidWest at all. Or the South. Or Alaska. Not one single bit. And I've lived in all those places except Alaska. Maybe Eastern Washington is like the MidWest but I don't spend any time in Eastern Washington. I think Seattle is most like Northern California with the exception of the weather and the level of socialization but I wonder if the weather is a cause for the lack of socialization.

Midwestern cities tend to be pretty isolated, right? Seattle shares that same sort of isolation it just happens to be on the west coast -- it's the biggest city in the Pac NW, which means it's surrounded by a whole lot of cow country and apple orchards (not that that of itself is such a bad thing.

California, the Northeast (and some of the Southeast), and parts of Texas, by contrast have a string of larger metro areas that are within relatively shorter driving distance.

Drive about 45 minutes south of Seattle and you'd think you were in Nebraska (scenery notwithstanding).

Midwestern cities (let's exclude Chicago here, although I understand its citizens have a little bit of a "second city" complex because they try to hard to compare themselves to NYC) try their best to be civic, cultural, internationally relevant, just like Seattle does. Someone might argue that Seattle is all of these things, but it's relative, really. Midwestern cities also tend to be a little pretentious (look at us, we have a few skyscrapers AND a monument -- it must make those yokels 15 miles away heads spin; hey, look Cowfest is next month! Boy I bet they sure wish they had a Cowfest over in France, yuppers).

[Seacove]

This is all geography:

Midwestern cities tend to be pretty isolated, right? Seattle shares that same sort of isolation it just happens to be on the west coast -- it's the biggest city in the Pac NW, which means it's surrounded by a whole lot of cow country and apple orchards (not that that of itself is such a bad thing.

California, the Northeast (and some of the Southeast), and parts of Texas, by contrast have a string of larger metro areas that are within relatively shorter driving distance.

Drive about 45 minutes south of Seattle and you'd think you were in Nebraska (scenery notwithstanding).

So not sure how it applies to the Seattle Freeze.

As for personality-wise, maybe, at best, you could call Seattle a liberal, more technical Minneapolis. Nebraska? Ohio? The Dakotas? You're talking apples and oranges here. IMHO.

[NWSandbox]

Originally Posted by Seacove

This is all geography:

Midwestern cities tend to be pretty isolated, right? Seattle shares that same sort of isolation it just happens to be on the west coast -- it's the biggest city in the Pac NW, which means it's surrounded by a whole lot of cow country and apple orchards (not that that of itself is such a bad thing.

California, the Northeast (and some of the Southeast), and parts of Texas, by contrast have a string of larger metro areas that are within relatively shorter driving distance.

Drive about 45 minutes south of Seattle and you'd think you were in Nebraska (scenery notwithstanding).

So not sure how it applies to the Seattle Freeze.

As for personality-wise, maybe, at best, you could call Seattle a liberal, more technical Minneapolis. Nebraska? Ohio? The Dakotas? You're talking apples and oranges here. IMHO.

Minneapolis is about as liberal as Seattle, I think. Although, take how people vote out of the equation, we're still talking about provinciality. It's just something you see in more isolated larger cities contrasted to those in more dense strings of metro areas. Compare it to California, for example, is there an isolated (more than 3 hours away from the next city) larger city there? I don't know, Tahoe, maybe, but that probably doesn't count. Even otherwise isolated cities in like Phoenix or Vegas in neighboring states are only a few hours breakneck speed drive away from LA.

On the East Coast, you can drive from DC to NYC in about 4-5 hours, passing about 4 major metro areas on the way).

Cities closer to other cities tend to be a little less "provincial" and more aware that they aren't at the center of the universe. Although there's always some degree of regional jingoism (Philadelphia is a great example of this: "hey, we know we're not pretty, but go Eagles!"), there also tends to be less of this "we're #1 in this because of our library ecosystem that is unparalleled -- see, we've taken dewey decimal to a whole new level! AND, we provide free internet to the homeless so they can update facebook. We're so techie that way.")

That is my basis for comparing Seattle more to the midwestern cities (except for, again, Chicago, which is sort of different) than to cities in California or the east coast.

[Seacove]

If you're talking about proximity to other cities as a basis for supporting the Seattle Freeze - I've got nothing on that. I don't agree with the correlation but perhaps others will agree.

[NWSandbox]

Originally Posted by Seacove

If you're talking about proximity to other cities as a basis for supporting the Seattle Freeze - I've got nothing on that. I don't agree with the correlation but perhaps others will agree.

Isolated often = insular and often = xenophobic (not saying racially, but definitely in the "you ain't from round here, are ya?" respect). Socially insular and xenophobic people aren't exactly the warmest and friendliest, then, are they?

Another aspect of the "freeze" (personally, I dislike the term, it's too cutesy) is the "us vs. them" attitudes that provincial thinking creates.

Think about this -- a region where many people complain about population growth and have had documented mass anti-growth sentiment. Here comes the clueless newcomer from somewhere else "Hey guys, I just moved here from _______________. I think I'm going to love it here. It sure is gloomy, but look at those trees! Will you be my friend? I have tons of friends back in ______________. By the way, where can I get a good (food not commonly found in Seattle)?"

Local: ". . . oh, uhh, great, I need to go do something."

Newcomer: "Hmmm, these people sure are @$#$#."

So, then, the newcomer tones it down, wonders what they're doing wrong, etc.

Newcomer: "Hi, want to go grab a coffee?"

Local: ". . . Oh, umm, sure, not today, but sometime maybe. Oh, so, where in California did you say you came from?"

Newcomer: "Huh? I'm not from California."

Local: "Wherever."

Or, ultimate passive-aggressive:
Local: "Sure thing, let's meet at that place over by Starbucks."
Newcomer: "Which place."
Local: "On 3rd."
Newcomer: "Okay, where is it?"
Local: "I gotta go, see you there, maybe."

[Seacove]

Nope, not buying. A farmer in Oklahoma may be remote, but highly social and motivated to actively participate socially.

I don't equate Seattle personalities to geographic isolation. But I do think the weather could create the Seattle personality or that those who have an introspective/introverted nature do best in Seattle. The whole nature/nurture thing.

I tend to think the "you're not from these parts" comes from locals who have encounters with those who are different and are embarrassed or bothered by "outsiders" behavior. This can be politically, religiously or even how verbal or outspoken they are. Locals will be polite, but sort of avoid them. Either the outsider starts acclimating to the local's behavior, or they come here on the Seattle Freeze thread and pound their keyboard hard on how much they hate Seattleites, how we're cold, etc. It sounds sort of mean when I read it here but Seattleites don't do it intentionally. It's unspoken, like not honking car horns unless a car is backing into you.

[NWSandbox]

Originally Posted by Seacove

I tend to think the "you're not from these parts" comes from locals who have encounters with those who are different and are embarrassed or bothered by "outsiders" behavior. This can be politically, religiously or even how verbal or outspoken they are. Locals will be polite, but sort of avoid them. Either the outsider starts acclimating to the local's behavior, or they come here on the Seattle Freeze thread and pound their keyboard hard on how much they hate Seattleites, how we're cold, etc. It sounds sort of mean when I read it here but Seattleites don't do it intentionally. It's unspoken, like not honking car horns unless a car is backing into you.

I think you characterized it very well -- another difference being that the "verbal, outspoken" people don't see their behavior as "rude" because expressing opinions or disagreeing isn't actually considered "rude" by many cultural norms (particularly in the U.S.).

Whereas, many people in Seattle seem to use the logic that since expressing opinions can lead to disagreement, and disagreement equates to confrontation, expressing opinions should be avoided. In fact, it's best to just not communicate, since you might hear something you don't like and it might take years to get over it.

Of course, it's not that people in Seattle don't get angry, they are often angry, they just express their anger in stoic, passive ways. Such as: not saying hello, giving someone bad directions, flaking out on an appointment, or sitting and glaring at the driver across the intersection while waving frantically at them to "go first, you, you have to go first, I will not budge." They love to put other people and cities down or ask ignorant questions "so, is it true that, on average, people in Mobile Alabama can't read? I thought I read that somewhere, or maybe a friend told me that, murhahaha, snark" and will act as though you insulted their mother if you criticize Seattle in any way "Huff, it has been MY experience, that I have read that the average rainfall in Florida is higher than Seattle's. Of course, let's let people think it rains all of the time (it does not, nor does the sun shine much, rainless grey clouds is what you get) so they'll stay away"

Oh, and they go online and blog a lot.

[Seacove]

Spot on.

[Lamplight]

Originally Posted by NWSandbox

"Hey guys, I just moved here from _______________. I think I'm going to love it here. It sure is gloomy, but look at those trees! Will you be my friend? I have tons of friends back in ______________. By the way, where can I get a good (food not commonly found in Seattle)?"

Local: ". . . oh, uhh, great, I need to go do something."

Newcomer: "Hmmm, these people sure are @$#$#."

The local in that conversation sounds a lot like me. Usually when someone asks me to do something social, I'll find a good reason why I can't. I simply prefer to be alone 99% of the time. And I'd be a bit freaked out too if some stranger asked me to be his/her friend or wanted to go do something together (coffee, etc).

[Woof]

Originally Posted by evergraystate

....Maybe its the interactions between nordic and asian cultures like article speculates but I'm not convinced.
.....

Once, on the other side of this country, a professor who had been raised in a Swedish-American area of the upper Midwest told me that in her community people rarely greeted one another in public places. It just wasn't done, a true cultural difference, and she found it a bit annoying to have people always ask how she was doing or how it was going, when they clearly didn't particularly care. She was not one for idle chitchat either.

I think it is somewhat a Scandinavian thing, and I think many northern Asian cultures are similar, and both of those are such a large percentage of the Seattle population.