Official "Seattle Freeze" Discussion Thread (real estate, high crime)
Seattle areaSeattle and King County Suburbs
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I'd like to reply collectively to a few comments here.
First, about the Pacific Northwest -- the so-called "Seattle freeze" isn't confined to the Seattle city limits or King County. I think it's prevalent in the Pacific Northwest generally. Also, I agree that comparisons to Minnesota are comparing two closely similar cultures.
Second, about people noticing or not. I posit that "cold and unwelcoming" or "passive aggressive and standoffish" are subjective characterisics. People who are brought up in a culture where it's the norm (to you "agreeing due to not wanting to look like the bad guy" but still not going along with what someone else wants may be "being nice" or being non-confrontational. To someone else, that's passive aggressive; to someone else, what's seen as "being friendly," to you, may seem obnoxious and "in your face") don't see their behavior as bad. In fact, they see it as the correct way to act and everyone else is "wrong."
I travel all over the country on a regular basis. In fact, to me, after moving to the Northwest, I see it as just the place where my house is. I do see a difference among people here compared to the South (obviously), California, Nevada, Texas, NY, etc. I'm not calling the NW out as a bad place, just saying that, yes, you do have a distinct culture that's pretty close to the Northern Midwest (Minnesota, Wisconsin, etc) in many ways, but markedly different from other parts of the nation.
There's no real solution to the "Seattle freeze" that I see other than adapting to it or moving somewhere more to your liking. People who emphatically deny that there is such a thing, or try to say that it's endemic to the whole nation and the people talking about it here are just complainers who have it in for Seattle, in my opinion, are just indignant that anything negative can be brought up by anyone about what they see as their home.
That's okay, too. Is it wrong to actually like the reserved, stoic behavior and stick to a close group of long time friends? Not necessarily. Is it wrong to keep your work life and personal life two separate things? Absolutely not. One thing I have noticed is that, for many people across the country, their job is also their social package. They make friends with co-workers and expect the same when they transfer to a new place or get a new job. In this area, I've found that people go home after work and don't socialize with their co-workers. This has the advantage of keeping people's personal lives out of their careers, but the disadvantage of closing the door to really getting to know people.
Likewise, in the neighborhood, I've seen that my neighbors, at least, scatter to different points of the WA map in the morning to go to work (East Side, Seattle, even some go to Everett), then come home and stay indoors (unless it's summer). We're courteous to each other, but typically don't go out of our way to hang out. Why? Defending their privacy maybe. One negative thing I noticed about my WA native neighbors is that they can be nosey. For example, I remember when I first moved in, I was working in my yard and heard my next door neighbor loudly ask her husband "what is he doing over there?!" I wasn't being loud, I was just removing a few bushes in the back yard (and not close to their yard at all) that I didn't like.
There's this sense among Washington people that, when you talk to them, they're keeping their proverbial cards close to their vests, meanwhile gathering enough information on you to make a judgement call.
The natives I've gotten to know through various venues are actually pretty cool. Smart, witty people, who really mean well, but definitely have a sense that it's their world and everyone else just kind of lives there. Almost like Seinfeld characters in a way (only quiet, not loud). One WA native woman I've met actually had this to say about Miami after she'd visited the first time, she noticed that it was "weird" because: people would strike up conversations for no reason. She also said she felt very attractive because men would show more interest in her when she went out -- she said she hardly ever gets approached for dates in Seattle (just my opinion, but she's a good looking woman, so it's not because she's unattractive).
So, there it is, even some natives notice a difference. Is it also hard to make friends in other places? Sure. Is Seattle also one of those places for its own set of reasons? You bet. The transplants are also kind of odd and don't behave like they did "back home" because, just my opinion, the Northwest is very subtle in its peculiarities and this throws them off.
How many transplants who post here have experienced being called "rude" in the NW for the first time in their adult lives -- without really knowing why you were being called that? Also, anyone else notice that courteousy here doesn't include some of the superficial phrases you're used to? How about this: you say "thanks" for whatever reason to someone and, in response, get a grunt or silence? Or that people don't excuse themselves when they brush past you -- ironically, if you walk by someone and say "excuse me" they look at you like you just insulted them?
I see this thread serving two purposes: one, it's a place for the people who've experienced this and have been affected by it to sort of vent. Two, for prospective transplants looking to move here, it may give them some food for thought. Many people feel that the force of their own personalities will overcome any social obstacle. If you can pass the "Seattle challenge" and not come away feeling like an obnoxious, rude misfit, then you're probably ready for prime time. If you're a quiet, reserved, introverted person yourself, and don't like people who are direct or "type A," loud behavior, or bawdy humor -- and if you're comfortable with just following the rules and behaving like everyone else -- then this could very well be the best place for you.
I tried to find at least one post from all regions of the country, surprisingly or not I didn't find any from the south, maybe I didn't look hard enough.
Until I did this search I was almost convinced by all the negative posts from transplants about how hard it is to make friends in Seattle that Seattle was somehow special in this regard.
Seattlerain, I think I see the point you're trying to make, but, have you also read these posts?
The first one, about SD seems to be mostly people chiming in with where they're moving from, talking about the SD climate, and how it's dog-friendly. How's that like this thread? The other SD thread is also very short and seems to reflect East Coast people adjusting to the West Coast in general and an apparently single person who does not drive a car living in family-oriented suburbia complaining that it's hard to socialize.
The DC thread is short, with a few posts, and dated. I know DC and there it's all about what you do, not where you're from. I can see DC's careerist culture throwing people who aren't career focused off (it's not the DC freeze, it's the DC snub if you're not in a certain income bracket).
The RI and Lancaster threads, also very short and not very recent, are talking about more rural/small town environments (Lancaster, population 50,000, in the middle of PA, a good distance from major cities). Ironically, some of the posters on those threads are from DC! Ha, take that "the other" Washingtonians!
Minnesota -- NW and MN are cut from much of the same cloth.
Pittsburgh: the original poster is from outside of the U.S. and, from living abroad myself, I know that acclimatizing to life in a new country is a whole other adjustment process altogether. I don't see a huge amount of discussion or complaining on this thread, either. Just people giving the OP constructive advice to be helpful.
So, not calling you out to be mean, but I don't think, in and of themselves, the threads you link refute what people say on this thread or prove that the "Seattle freeze" happens everywhere and is therefore bogus. Also, notice that the reasons and frustrations that are cited are a little different (except maybe the MN threads) from what people are observing and saying here.
Last but not least, I also didn't see the people who are posting concerns or complaints on the threads you link coming under personal attack or getting much debate from the respondents like you see on the Seattle threads.
Last edited by HistoryAficionado; 03-09-2008 at 04:35 PM..
Oh well, I'm outnumbered. I've said this earlier in the forum that I know plenty of Seattle folk that I grew up with that were warm and friendly. Perhaps it was just my assumption in that I didn't know any better.
I've had people tell me that I'm open, warm, and friendly but maybe they were just telling me that to make me feel good. In their hearts, they knew I was closed, cold, and unfriendly.
All of you are eventually going to convince me that I'm closed, cold, and unfriendly. *sigh*
I don't think anyone is trying to say that every single WA native is a cold, unfriendly person. I think we're just sharing what we've encountered.
Also, I think you're a bit older than a lot of the transplants on the message board that talk about encountering this freeze, so perhaps it's a generational thing??
Also, don't you live in Nevada now? I'm not sure how long you've been gone, but perhaps it's worse than when you lived here?
It seems to me you like to blame a lot of stuff on transplants, and while I'm sure you're justified in some respects, there's a reason that the PNW has the reputation about unfriendly people that it does, it's not from all the transplants.
Seattlerain, I think I see the point you're trying to make, but, have you also read these posts?
The first one, about SD seems to be mostly people chiming in with where they're moving from, talking about the SD climate, and how it's dog-friendly. How's that like this thread? The other SD thread is also very short and seems to reflect East Coast people adjusting to the West Coast in general and an apparently single person who does not drive a car living in family-oriented suburbia complaining that it's hard to socialize.
The DC thread is short, with a few posts, and dated. I know DC and there it's all about what you do, not where you're from. I can see DC's careerist culture throwing people who aren't career focused off (it's not the DC freeze, it's the DC snub if you're not in a certain income bracket).
The RI and Lancaster threads, also very short and not very recent, are talking about more rural/small town environments (Lancaster, population 50,000, in the middle of PA, a good distance from major cities). Ironically, some of the posters on those threads are from DC! Ha, take that "the other" Washingtonians!
Minnesota -- NW and MN are cut from much of the same cloth.
Pittsburgh: the original poster is from outside of the U.S. and, from living abroad myself, I know that acclimatizing to life in a new country is a whole other adjustment process altogether. I don't see a huge amount of discussion or complaining on this thread, either. Just people giving the OP constructive advice to be helpful.
So, not calling you out to be mean, but I don't think, in and of themselves, the threads you link refute what people say on this thread or prove that the "Seattle freeze" happens everywhere and is therefore bogus. Also, notice that the reasons and frustrations that are cited are a little different (except maybe the MN threads) from what people are observing and saying here.
Last but not least, I also didn't see the people who are posting concerns or complaints on the threads you link coming under personal attack or getting much debate from the respondents like you see on the Seattle threads.
You are correct, the first link I posted does not have any pertinence, my mistake, and I did not intend to post that one.
Yes I read them, every single post in all the threads I mentioned. I really don't think it makes a difference how recent they are.
I want to make just one more point, I did not post what I posted to try and refute anything said or not said in this thread...
Hi Topaz! Agreed with your post, particularly the highlighted areas.
When educated, attractive, outgoing and conventional people have trouble building friendships and rapport in an area, and they report it over and over, there is a problem with the area (or something in its water)...and not the people.
You will hardly see this general theme on other city boards, but it is prevalent in these three:
- Seattle (the Freeze)
- Portland (a similar version)
- Minneapolis (Minnesota Nice)
So, if people are enraged that they want to keep talking about it on these 3 boards, then there's something to it, right?
This stuff pops up on the Denver board, too, with some regularity, and 28 yrs ago, if there had been a City-Data, I would have started a thread about the "freeze" there. My complaints were similar to the Seattle freeze stuff: people being unwilling to talk in line, rude clerks, etc. I think the clerks in most of the stores have received some customer service training, because most of them now at least smile and say hello. Just this afternoon, a grocery store sacker asked me for my candy bar! Once I had kids and wasn't working any more, I joined mom's groups and made some friends. Most were/are from elsewhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Historyafficianado
Seattlerain, I think I see the point you're trying to make, but, have you also read these posts?
Pittsburgh: the original poster is from outside of the U.S. and, from living abroad myself, I know that acclimatizing to life in a new country is a whole other adjustment process altogether. I don't see a huge amount of discussion or complaining on this thread, either. Just people giving the OP constructive advice to be helpful.
So, not calling you out to be mean, but I don't think, in and of themselves, the threads you link refute what people say on this thread or prove that the "Seattle freeze" happens everywhere and is therefore bogus. Also, notice that the reasons and frustrations that are cited are a little different (except maybe the MN threads) from what people are observing and saying here.
Last but not least, I also didn't see the people who are posting concerns or complaints on the threads you link coming under personal attack or getting much debate from the respondents like you see on the Seattle threads.
I am from Pittsburgh and was surprised to see that I contributed to that thread, advising the OP to join a church if so inclined. I can tell you, the problem in Pittsburgh is different than Seattle or Denver, but the end result is the same. Many (most?) people there have lived there all their lives, have several generations of family there, and have all the friends they will ever need through their families and perhaps a few neighbors. They see no need for adding any more people to their social circle. However, they will talk to you anywhere, and are generally helpful and outgoing.
It seems to me you like to blame a lot of stuff on transplants, and while I'm sure you're justified in some respects, there's a reason that the PNW has the reputation about unfriendly people that it does, it's not from all the transplants. V. =)
I'm not so sure that blaming things on the transplants is unique to the PNW. I would imagine that it happens anywhere there is, or has been a large number of transplants.
Years and years ago, before the area had a large number of transplants, I remember people moving to, or visiting the PNW remarking on how friendly the people were. So, beyond any societal changes, at least some of this "unfriendliness" has to come from a large number of transplants.
I'm not so sure that blaming things on the transplants is unique to the PNW. I would imagine that it happens anywhere there is, or has been a large number of transplants.
Years and years ago, before the area had a large number of transplants, I remember people moving to, or visiting the PNW remarking on how friendly the people were. So, beyond any societal changes, at least some of this "unfriendliness" has to come from a large number of transplants.
I think it comes from the natives' bitterness over the transplants. You can't blame it all on the transplants, as over and over again in this thread people have related that it's the transplants that are nice and not the natives.
ETA: Also, I'm sure the people here seem very friendly to people that are just visiting. I don't think visitors' views of the area are valid. Before I ever moved here, I visited on a business trip, and thought the people were great. There's a big difference between visiting and living here.
You are correct, the first link I posted does not have any pertinence, my mistake, and I did not intend to post that one.
Yes I read them, every single post in all the threads I mentioned. I really don't think it makes a difference how recent they are.
I want to make just one more point, I did not post what I posted to try and refute anything said or not said in this thread...
I mention how recent (and the relative number of posts) the threads are to demonstrate whether it's a "hot topic" or common discussion in the given city forum linked or not (like it seems to be here, given the age and number of responses to scirocco's thread).
Okay, fair enough -- from your statement
Quote:
Originally Posted by seattlerain
Until I did this search I was almost convinced by all the negative posts from transplants about how hard it is to make friends in Seattle that Seattle was somehow special in this regard.
I thought you were posting those links to show that "the Seattle freeze" is not just a Seattle area (I say it's the whole Northwest) phenomenon. I guess I misinterpreted your intent.
The links show that, in some cases, some people, for various reasons (moved form a city to a rural area (RI & PA threads), are from out of the country (Pitt thread), don't get or don't like the "you are your job" culture (DC thread), don't drive a car (SD thread), etc), ask for advice on how to make friends in a new city. So, your links don't necessarily reflect any ubiquity of the "Seattle freeze" environment throughout the country -- although, Minnesota appears to have a similar social climate to the Northwest that draws similar observations -- but does demonstrate that not 100% of the people adjust easily to 100% of the locations.
Last edited by HistoryAficionado; 03-09-2008 at 06:44 PM..
I'm not so sure that blaming things on the transplants is unique to the PNW. I would imagine that it happens anywhere there is, or has been a large number of transplants.
Even if that does happen anywhere with a large number of transplants (I'm not so sure it does, though), it's still no excuse for the behavior, though, right? Lots of dysfunctional things happen in lots of places, but it doesn't mean it should be the norm, does it?
Just from my observations, I think "natives vs others" happens mostly in small rural areas. It's kind of odd to see in a larger metro area in addition to the small towns around it.
Each region has its own idiosyncrasies, though. I notice, for example, when I visit friends in Las Vegas, there's a "locals vs. tourists" mentality that people run into; however, once someone moves to Vegas, they're no longer "tourists" and seem to become instant "locals" (or maybe they just start calling themselves locals once they sign the lease or buy the house, etc). Las Vegas has a high number of transplants, as does San Diego, LA, NY, DC, San Francisco, etc.
Last edited by HistoryAficionado; 03-09-2008 at 06:58 PM..
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