Official "Seattle Freeze" Discussion Thread (Cle Elum: utilities, suite)

[wannabeaTexan]

Originally Posted by Topaz

I'm an introvert but I still notice when people are rude. I don't know why Seattle has a reputation for politeness but I think what is really meant by that is that people are generally quiet and reserved rather than screaming in your face if they are annoyed with you.

Yesterday I was leaving a Pacific Northwest Starbucks and a customer was coming toward the door. I noticed she was juggling a drink carrier and a large bag and she seemed to be struggling with it so I waited a few extra moments to hold the door open for her. She scurried through and AVOIDED looking at me or saying, "Thank you." How rude is THAT?

Then as I was driving away from the store, a guy who seemed to be in a big hurry started backing out his car even though I had the right of way. I stopped, waved him through, and smiled. He turned his head to avoid eye contact and sped past me, deliberately avoiding eye contact even though I had just smiled at him.

My husband is in Houston for work and he commented that it is so refreshing there that every time someone crosses in front of him in a grocery store aisle, they say, "Excuse me." By contrast, people in Seattle and Portland will practically knock you down in a store without acknowledging that they have invaded your space bubble. Customer service professionals are nice in Portland...their behavior is in marked contrast to their customers. In Seattle, the customer service professionals AND the customers tend to be rude.

Common courtesies and just a minimum of caring for the people in one's community...I care about these things more after living in the social drought of the Pacific Northwest.

Today was my last day living in the Pacific Northwest. I'm sure there will be weird social phenomena in Houston but at least the dynamics will be different...I'm weary of the familiar ones in the Pacific Northwest.

Well, as someone who LOVES the sun and complains about this weather constantly, I think maybe the weather affects people here more than they like to admit. I know it puts ME in a bad mood sometimes.

Good luck in Houston.

[cobolt]

Originally Posted by Topaz

I'm an introvert but I still notice when people are rude. I don't know why Seattle has a reputation for politeness but I think what is really meant by that is that people are generally quiet and reserved rather than screaming in your face if they are annoyed with you.

Yesterday I was leaving a Pacific Northwest Starbucks and a customer was coming toward the door. I noticed she was juggling a drink carrier and a large bag and she seemed to be struggling with it so I waited a few extra moments to hold the door open for her. She scurried through and AVOIDED looking at me or saying, "Thank you." How rude is THAT?

Then as I was driving away from the store, a guy who seemed to be in a big hurry started backing out his car even though I had the right of way. I stopped, waved him through, and smiled. He turned his head to avoid eye contact and sped past me, deliberately avoiding eye contact even though I had just smiled at him.

My husband is in Houston for work and he commented that it is so refreshing there that every time someone crosses in front of him in a grocery store aisle, they say, "Excuse me." By contrast, people in Seattle and Portland will practically knock you down in a store without acknowledging that they have invaded your space bubble. Customer service professionals are nice in Portland...their behavior is in marked contrast to their customers. In Seattle, the customer service professionals AND the customers tend to be rude.

Common courtesies and just a minimum of caring for the people in one's community...I care about these things more after living in the social drought of the Pacific Northwest.

Today was my last day living in the Pacific Northwest. I'm sure there will be weird social phenomena in Houston but at least the dynamics will be different...I'm weary of the familiar ones in the Pacific Northwest.

Oh I can't tell you how many strange examples of passive-aggressive and entitled PacNW behavior I've seen here. I too have held the door for customers only to have them ignore me.

I was in Fred Meyer a few months ago and as I was leaving the store, I passed a woman and simply made eye contact and said "Hello." She looked at me and said really loud "I don't KNOW you!" I wasn't hitting on her..heck I"m a chick! Pretty bad when someone jumps down you're throat for saying hello.

I can't tell you how many times I"ve let drivers get in front of me, stopped so they could get in the lane...no hand acknowledgement, no eye contact, nothing. Just the straight-ahead-windshield-stare!

Last week I was in the check out line at Trader Joes. The woman in front of me decided to move to the next line. THen when she saw it wasn't moving quick enough for her, (she'd been standing there a good 3-4 minutes) she promptly switched lanes again to my lane and stepped back in her original place in line (yes, in front of me) and said to me "I was only LOOKING to see if that line was shorter." I was floored at her attitude, the tone of her voice, the sense of entitlement. I mean, I simply stared at her like "really?"

I've never been anywhere in the US like this. I don't even have these types of experiences in Chicago. Yeah...maybe they're a bit more upfront and frank up there, but "sorry, thanks, excuse me" are still known phrases among the masses.

[seattlerain]

Originally Posted by cobolt

Oh I can't tell you how many strange examples of passive-aggressive and entitled PacNW behavior I've seen here. I too have held the door for customers only to have them ignore me.

I was in Fred Meyer a few months ago and as I was leaving the store, I passed a woman and simply made eye contact and said "Hello." She looked at me and said really loud "I don't KNOW you!" I wasn't hitting on her..heck I"m a chick! Pretty bad when someone jumps down you're throat for saying hello.

I can't tell you how many times I"ve let drivers get in front of me, stopped so they could get in the lane...no hand acknowledgement, no eye contact, nothing. Just the straight-ahead-windshield-stare!

Last week I was in the check out line at Trader Joes. The woman in front of me decided to move to the next line. THen when she saw it wasn't moving quick enough for her, (she'd been standing there a good 3-4 minutes) she promptly switched lanes again to my lane and stepped back in her original place in line (yes, in front of me) and said to me "I was only LOOKING to see if that line was shorter." I was floored at her attitude, the tone of her voice, the sense of entitlement. I mean, I simply stared at her like "really?"

I've never been anywhere in the US like this. I don't even have these types of experiences in Chicago. Yeah...maybe they're a bit more upfront and frank up there, but "sorry, thanks, excuse me" are still known phrases among the masses.

I'm hearing more and more stories like this. It's really quite disheartening, as it wasn't like this 25-30 years ago, actually it wasn't like this even 10-15 years ago.

I know that if I suggested that all of this was because of all the transplants I'd be jumped on for saying it...I know that there are those of you who would never believe that there was a time that it wasn't like this, but what are the alternatives?

[cobolt]

Originally Posted by seattlerain

I'm hearing more and more stories like this. It's really quite disheartening, as it wasn't like this 25-30 years ago, actually it wasn't like this even 10-15 years ago.

I know that if I suggested that all of this was because of all the transplants I'd be jumped on for saying it...I know that there are those of you who would never believe that there was a time that it wasn't like this, but what are the alternatives?

Maybe there are two forces at work: some of this behavior is imported by some transplants and also the locals' reaction to the influx of transplants, therefore making the behavior indistinguishable between the two?

[toughguy]

Perhaps I live in a bubble, but I can't relate to these experiences. I'm not trying to be some homer booster here - Honestly I wouldn't mind at all if people did in fact act this way, no skin off my back. I hate fake pleasentries and would be perfectly happy not having this pretend facade of trying to act like I genuinely care about some random piece of work that is ahead of me in the grocery aisle.

It's just don't run into these situations. At the Trader Joe's I go to, all of the clerks are very friendly and chatty. There are some blind fellows that work in my building, and people go out of their way to accomdate them and make sure they are pressing the right elevator button and things like that. When I go to the starbucks across the street, they smile and ask how I am doing. I just don't experience what some of the others in this thread are going on about. Sometimes I wish I would.

[wannabeaTexan]

Originally Posted by toughguy

Perhaps I live in a bubble, but I can't relate to these experiences. I'm not trying to be some homer booster here - Honestly I wouldn't mind at all if people did in fact act this way, no skin off my back. I hate fake pleasentries and would be perfectly happy not having this pretend facade of trying to act like I genuinely care about some random piece of work that is ahead of me in the grocery aisle.

It's just don't run into these situations. At the Trader Joe's I go to, all of the clerks are very friendly and chatty. There are some blind fellows that work in my building, and people go out of their way to accomdate them and make sure they are pressing the right elevator button and things like that. When I go to the starbucks across the street, they smile and ask how I am doing. I just don't experience what some of the others in this thread are going on about. Sometimes I wish I would.

Neither do I, toughguy, neither do I.

[HistoryAficionado]

Just some food for thought:

I think the "Seattle freeze" can to some degree be described by differences in communication norms.

Why people communicate: to express a need (even if that need is just to chat and pass the time).
The people listening to the speaker are reactors: people will react negatively to things that they see outside of their cultural norms or learned behavioral norms -- no matter what that person is saying, if their tone, mannerisms, etc, seem contrary to what the listener grew up seeing as "correct" it will at best distract them and at worst cause hostility. Generally, this is why it takes extra effort to communicate with people from different backgrounds.
Initiation requires acknowledgement for a conversation to start: facing someone and making eye contact is a sign that you want to talk, if they respond by facing you back and making eye contact, it opens the conversation; if they don't (they look way, avoid eye contact, etc) it closes the door to conversation.
Contact, like handshakes: depends on the cultural expectation as to whether or not it will put someone off or is expected.
Figure out why the person should talk to you: what's the benefit to them?

This is all general stuff that they teach in public speaking and communications classes.

So, what's up with Seattle and the transplants?

Observations about Seattle's culture
1. Eye contact is considered intrusive by many and appears to be avoided.
2. Many in Seattle don't see a need to talk to new people or expand their social circles
3. Many in Seattle resent "transplants" for whatever reason and are adverse to associating with people they know (or can guess from behavior) aren't from here.
4. Since Seattle's cultural norms involve less eye contact, quieter speaking tones, more subtle and less direct statements, a person who is overtly loud or direct sets off internal alarm bells with the locals, causing irritation, hostility, fear, or avoidance.

The transplants are confused because:
1. They expect eye contact to be returned, since that's the cultural norm they grew up with. When it isn't, they assume the person isn't interested in talking to them and therefore unfriendly. Many conversational doors are shut this way.
2. They have a need to socialize and make new friends (being new to the area) that many locals don't appear to share. They don't get that the benefit to them is greater than the benefit to the locals.
3. They aren't aware immediately of the adverse reactions they cause by the locals when they don't conform to the local way of doing things.
4. Likewise, transplants who are just being themselves and following the cultural norms of their own upbringings, notice the negative responses that people have to them and start to become self conscious about it.
5. It's embarassing for them to find out the hard way that handshakes and the like are flat out unwanted by many people here.

Then, at the crossroads, the disaffected transplants will either, complain a lot, leave (or begin plans to leave), or try to adapt to the local culture themselves. Not having grown up with it, this is a stressful effort for those not used to the local culture that can also manifest as hostility or over-reaction (the transplant becomes even more introverted or anti-social than the locals, maybe). I can see a transplant thinking "well, if everyone up here is unfriendly to me, then I may as well pre-emptively be that way myself so I don't feel stupid or rejected."

When I read the complaints and responses, I get (transplants who don't adapt): people are rude and don't make eye contact -- I think the people in the NW are very cold and unfriendly; it's hard to make any friends.
(Locals or transplants whose personalities are suited for the Northwest): well, I don't like making eye contact and talking to strangers myself, so I say this "freeze" thing is baloney. Or "I'm a local and get a very warm reception from the people I've known all of my life and grew up with." -- I also suspect that, being local, you have a better idea of "how to act" and this helps you get further than a fish out of water transplant who's having to re-learn how to behave at some point in their adult lives.

Last but not least: no one likes to hear that their behavior is wrong or that they should change themselves to accomodate others. I think this is why this conversation evokes indignation on both sides of the debate.

[argo69]

I see the "Seattle Freeze" as being akin to the sayings that New Yorkers are "brassy and in your face" or Los Angelean's are "image conscious". Of course the descriptions don't apply to everyone but they apply to ENOUGH people that the areas have gotten a reputation for these characteristics. The latest edition of the Seattle Survival Guide warns potential newcomers of the "freeze" phenomenom, long articles have been written on it in the local papers, lots of people here complain about it. It IS real to an extent, whatever the cause, but it is neither omnipresent nor unthawable.

[tahoma14410]

Perhaps I live in a bubble, but I can't relate to these experiences. I'm not trying to be some homer booster here - Honestly I wouldn't mind at all if people did in fact act this way, no skin off my back. I hate fake pleasentries and would be perfectly happy not having this pretend facade of trying to act like I genuinely care about some random piece of work that is ahead of me in the grocery aisle.
And I guess that's the difference in NW people and, in my case, Texans who are moving to the NW. The pleasantries we extend aren't fake, in the least.

[tahoma14410]

historyafficianado, I believe you've hit the nail on the head with your post. However, when I move up to PDX next month, I seriously doubt I will change my behavior...being cold and distant to everyone just isn't in my bones. I'm sure there are plenty of people who will appreciate...hell, even gravitate, towards an open, gregarious Texas who's pleasantries are genuine.