Official "Seattle Freeze" Discussion Thread (buying, airport)

[south-to-west]

Originally Posted by Historyafficianado

Just some food for thought:

I think the "Seattle freeze" can to some degree be described by differences in communication norms.

Why people communicate: to express a need (even if that need is just to chat and pass the time).
The people listening to the speaker are reactors: people will react negatively to things that they see outside of their cultural norms or learned behavioral norms -- no matter what that person is saying, if their tone, mannerisms, etc, seem contrary to what the listener grew up seeing as "correct" it will at best distract them and at worst cause hostility. Generally, this is why it takes extra effort to communicate with people from different backgrounds.
Initiation requires acknowledgement for a conversation to start: facing someone and making eye contact is a sign that you want to talk, if they respond by facing you back and making eye contact, it opens the conversation; if they don't (they look way, avoid eye contact, etc) it closes the door to conversation.
Contact, like handshakes: depends on the cultural expectation as to whether or not it will put someone off or is expected.
Figure out why the person should talk to you: what's the benefit to them?

This is all general stuff that they teach in public speaking and communications classes.

So, what's up with Seattle and the transplants?

Observations about Seattle's culture
1. Eye contact is considered intrusive by many and appears to be avoided.
2. Many in Seattle don't see a need to talk to new people or expand their social circles
3. Many in Seattle resent "transplants" for whatever reason and are adverse to associating with people they know (or can guess from behavior) aren't from here.
4. Since Seattle's cultural norms involve less eye contact, quieter speaking tones, more subtle and less direct statements, a person who is overtly loud or direct sets off internal alarm bells with the locals, causing irritation, hostility, fear, or avoidance.

The transplants are confused because:
1. They expect eye contact to be returned, since that's the cultural norm they grew up with. When it isn't, they assume the person isn't interested in talking to them and therefore unfriendly. Many conversational doors are shut this way.
2. They have a need to socialize and make new friends (being new to the area) that many locals don't appear to share. They don't get that the benefit to them is greater than the benefit to the locals.
3. They aren't aware immediately of the adverse reactions they cause by the locals when they don't conform to the local way of doing things.
4. Likewise, transplants who are just being themselves and following the cultural norms of their own upbringings, notice the negative responses that people have to them and start to become self conscious about it.
5. It's embarassing for them to find out the hard way that handshakes and the like are flat out unwanted by many people here.

Then, at the crossroads, the disaffected transplants will either, complain a lot, leave (or begin plans to leave), or try to adapt to the local culture themselves. Not having grown up with it, this is a stressful effort for those not used to the local culture that can also manifest as hostility or over-reaction (the transplant becomes even more introverted or anti-social than the locals, maybe). I can see a transplant thinking "well, if everyone up here is unfriendly to me, then I may as well pre-emptively be that way myself so I don't feel stupid or rejected."

When I read the complaints and responses, I get (transplants who don't adapt): people are rude and don't make eye contact -- I think the people in the NW are very cold and unfriendly; it's hard to make any friends.
(Locals or transplants whose personalities are suited for the Northwest): well, I don't like making eye contact and talking to strangers myself, so I say this "freeze" thing is baloney. Or "I'm a local and get a very warm reception from the people I've known all of my life and grew up with." -- I also suspect that, being local, you have a better idea of "how to act" and this helps you get further than a fish out of water transplant who's having to re-learn how to behave at some point in their adult lives.

Last but not least: no one likes to hear that their behavior is wrong or that they should change themselves to accomodate others. I think this is why this conversation evokes indignation on both sides of the debate.

Half of my family lives in Washington with my dad living in Eastern Washington in the Tri Cities and my brother living in Seattle. I have never noticed the Seattle freeze phenomenon in the Tri Cities and I have barely noticed it in Seattle. Although I appreciate your analysis, social interaction shouldn't have to be like brain surgery. I've never lived in a place--including overseas--where I would have had to read people like that. If people have an adverse reaction to having eye contact and saying a simple "hi" or have problems shaking hands then they are pariahs and I simply don't trust them.

[HistoryAficionado]

Originally Posted by south-to-west

Half of my family lives in Washington with my dad living in Eastern Washington in the Tri Cities and my brother living in Seattle. I have never noticed the Seattle freeze phenomenon in the Tri Cities and I have barely noticed it in Seattle.

So, your experience with this is coming to visit relatives occasionally, rather than living here yourself. As you're spending time with relatives, do you think you'd be as affected as someone moving here who doesn't know anyone?

Originally Posted by south-to-west

Although I appreciate your analysis, social interaction shouldn't have to be like brain surgery. I've never lived in a place--including overseas--where I would have had to read people like that.

I also lived overseas for about 6 years and travel to other countries regularly (about 3 times a year, different places). I've also never found the need to analyze a social culture to the degree that I have here. Mostly, I'm doing it for the benefit of the people who are saying that they have a hard time adjusting.

Originally Posted by south-to-west

If people have an adverse reaction to having eye contact and saying a simple "hi" or have problems shaking hands then they are pariahs and I simply don't trust them.

That's a pretty strong statement. From my own observation and the posts of many other people, as well as from talking to other transplants to the region, the lack of eye contact and handshaking in this area is notable. I wouldn't call the Northwesterners pariahs, but if that's your opinion, then you would likely mistrust a lot of the people you met up here.

[HistoryAficionado]

Originally Posted by tahoma14410

historyafficianado, I believe you've hit the nail on the head with your post. However, when I move up to PDX next month, I seriously doubt I will change my behavior...being cold and distant to everyone just isn't in my bones. I'm sure there are plenty of people who will appreciate...hell, even gravitate, towards an open, gregarious Texas who's pleasantries are genuine.

Yeah, just be yourself. As I've said, that long-winded analysis is at least my insight for the people who are complaining about the Seattle Freeze.

Oregon, by the way, while similar to WA, is a few degrees less uptight than WA -- less nanny state laws and a little more of a relaxed atmosphere. Still, at least from visits and dealings with people from OR, I do see some similarities.

For what it's worth, here's Portland's apparent version of our "Seattle Freeze" thread:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/portl...and-gloom.html

[anytownusa]

I like Seattle, its a beautiful place and I have met a lot of good people despit moving here all by myself. But after 10 months I am moving home next week. I grew up in Tennessee and spent about 6 months in southern California after college before moving up here.
Here are some of my observations about this culture:

The emotional spectrum of this society is about as wide as a human hair.

People are unresponsive. I work so hard to build relationships with people and get no effort on their part. My soul is pretty much dying a slow painfull emotional death.

I never get criticised for anything. People are nice enough to avoid confrontation.

I feel very dissconnected from the community and the rest of the country. I volunteer at the hospital, get involved in church, and tutor high schoolers, but nothings working for me.

Protocol. People have to have everything exactly their way. Too many people work up in an office building all day socially isolated in front of a com****r. Think about the psychology behind that. A com****r does whatever you tell it to do immediatly. People get used to that and unconciously expect people to be the same way.

There are better places to live.

[toughguy]

Originally Posted by anytownusa

I like Seattle, its a beautiful place and I have met a lot of good people despit moving here all by myself. But after 10 months I am moving home next week. I grew up in Tennessee and spent about 6 months in southern California after college before moving up here.
Here are some of my observations about this culture:

The emotional spectrum of this society is about as wide as a human hair.

People are unresponsive. I work so hard to build relationships with people and get no effort on their part. My soul is pretty much dying a slow painfull emotional death.

I never get criticised for anything. People are nice enough to avoid confrontation.

I feel very dissconnected from the community and the rest of the country. I volunteer at the hospital, get involved in church, and tutor high schoolers, but nothings working for me.

Protocol. People have to have everything exactly their way. Too many people work up in an office building all day socially isolated in front of a com****r. Think about the psychology behind that. A com****r does whatever you tell it to do immediatly. People get used to that and unconciously expect people to be the same way.

There are better places to live.

Like Tennesee, the banjo and straw hat capital of the world?

[cobolt]

Originally Posted by toughguy

Like Tennesee, the banjo and straw hat capital of the world?

There you go...perpetuating and proving the very mentality that drives people away in the first place: the perception or belief that anything outside of WA that they don't understand (areas in the south, etc) is hick or whatever stereotyped. I'm amazed at the "liberal" and "all-inclusive" and "non-judgemental" mentality many in the Pac NW believe they encompass, only to make some off-handed, stereotypical statement about a place they, more than likely know nothing about, much less have ever set a visit there.

[HistoryAficionado]

Originally Posted by cobolt

There you go...perpetuating and proving the very mentality that drives people away in the first place: the perception or belief that anything outside of WA that they don't understand (areas in the south, etc) is hick or whatever stereotyped. I'm amazed at the "liberal" and "all-inclusive" and "non-judgemental" mentality many in the Pac NW believe they encompass, only to make some off-handed, stereotypical statement about a place they, more than likely know nothing about, much less have ever set a visit there.

I second that. I was also surprised how, for all of its hype, technologically backward the NW is compared to major East Coast cities (including Atlanta) and those in California. Here, they act as though pin pads and card readers at the grocery store checkout are some kind of new-fangled advanced technology -- meanwhile, they've been around forever. I've also noticed that much of the general services/utilities leave something to be desired.

Also, is it just me or is driving on the freeway in WA like driving on gravel compared to many other areas?

[toughguy]

Bro I was joking around, apparently intent doesn't translate well on the internet. It was a joke, lighten up. What, it's ok to stereotype the pnw on this board, but not other places? Memphis is known for being the country music capital of the world. Since country music and I are polar opposites, I am poking fun at it. LOL darned if you do and darned if you don't I guess. WE get accused of being thin skinned?

[toughguy]

Originally Posted by Historyafficianado

I second that. I was also surprised how, for all of its hype, technologically backward the NW is compared to major East Coast cities (including Atlanta) and those in California. Here, they act as though pin pads and card readers at the grocery store checkout are some kind of new-fangled advanced technology -- meanwhile, they've been around forever. I've also noticed that much of the general services/utilities leave something to be desired.

Also, is it just me or is driving on the freeway in WA like driving on gravel compared to many other areas?

hahahaha I don't know how to respond to this - newfangled devices? those things have been around for over a decade here, as long as I can remember at least. Where are you shopping, Cle Elum?

[seattlerain]

Originally Posted by Historyafficianado

I second that. I was also surprised how, for all of its hype, technologically backward the NW is compared to major East Coast cities (including Atlanta) and those in California. Here, they act as though pin pads and card readers at the grocery store checkout are some kind of new-fangled advanced technology -- meanwhile, they've been around forever. I've also noticed that much of the general services/utilities leave something to be desired.

Also, is it just me or is driving on the freeway in WA like driving on gravel compared to many other areas?

I've never witnessed people here acting like pin pads and card readers were "new-fangled advanced technology...