Seattle v Denver (revisited) (Bellevue, Lakewood: real estate market, condo, low crime)

[Inconceivable]

I've posted this in the Denver threads as well so forgive the repeat, but I'd like some Seattle input on this topic. I am currently located in DC and ready to transfer to Seattle or Denver - deciding between the two has been very difficult. I should also state what I'm looking for in a city is not what others would be looking for or weigh in their decisions - we all want different things.

My personal pros/cons in the selection process:

Climate: Greener and lusher environments are my thing - I was born and raised on the east coast so water, fresh seafood, etc. is a huge bonus and cool year round is also a plus. Denver has been "brown" each time I have visited, but I see so many people complaining about the lack of sun and extended darkness really bothering them in Seattle. Having only visited Seattle for brief periods, I have no idea if the "gloom" would be an issue but I am a self-entertaining person that doesn't get bored or feel trapped indoors too easily. Hiking and photography are my hobbies and could be done in either location. I also like skiing but tend to fall rather than ski down mountains.

Population characteristics: I am not a bleeding heart, but definitely prefer a liberal and eco-conscious environment.

Housing costs: I'd like to buy for around 300K. Would this even touch a condo or TH in Seattle in a reasonably safe neighbourhood? (People keep telling me buy in West Seattle.) The commute would be to Bellevue (ouch) if I opted for Seattle; Lakewood if I selected Denver. I have a pretty large dog ...sadly I couldn't afford a place in DC to keep her so she's been residing with some family until I relocate. A very small backyard with nearby dog parks or walking trails would be ideal.

Traffic: Well, DC Metro traffic is nothing to sneeze at. If Seattle is on par with DC commuting I could probably handle it. Denver appears to have much better transportation, but also has topography/open space working to its advantage. I am a proponent of paying a little more for housing to avoid spending hours commuting each way.

People-friendly: I've read that neither city is the place to be if you're looking to make friends; both outwardly polite, but tend to limit it to pleasantries and can be quite cliquish. I've read about the "Seattle Freeze" but also read that as a single person, Denver may not be ideal as it's geared more towards families with children, suburbia, church functions, etc. I have no real social networks in either city, just a few acquaintances and ‘friends of friends’ kind of thing...I suspect this is going to be very tough in either city but it’s a weighty factor on my list of pros/cons.

So far Seattle definitely seems like the forerunner based on the City's characteristics and setting; Denver the choice financially if I want to own a home. I'd be willing to take a smaller condo/TH option in Seattle if the real estate market were a reality. I am already in contact with a good Seattle realtor and lender, who seem to feel that's doable, but obviously they have different motivations and I have to be a little wary of their input.

Comments and suggestions are greatly appreciated, especially anyone that may have relocated from the DC area.

[Fallingwaters]

I had practically an identical choice and chose Seattle for its climate and because it seemed to have more to do.

However, I wish I could go back and choose Denver. Here's why:

Climate (ironically): I considered Denver's snowfall a downside. I didn't count on the Northwest's gloominess as being a big negative, as I like rainy weather and Seattle has an overall milder temperature. Denver's arid, but at least you get some sunshine in fall and winter.

Traffic: I've driven on the beltway and it's no picnic, but Seattle's traffic is more frustrating because it seems like people just drive slowly and city freeway and surface road infrastructure doesn't sustain the traffic levels. Traffic irritates me more here for that reason. While Denver also has congestion, I think its toll road that lets you bypass the city if you need to and the grid-like way the city was built maked it more efficient and traffic is better. Seattle has buses but no light rail as of yet. Denver also doesn't have a light rail infrastructure, but they appear to be making progress on getting one. Seattle and Puget Sound area voters keep turning down proposals for light rail and/or increasing the freeway capacity.

People: Rather than writing a lot about it, here's a reference: The Seattle Weekly, spoofs some of the strereotypical Seattle attitudes in its weekly "Ask an Uptight Seattleite" column, which I think reflects much of the local culture in a humorous way.
Uptight Seattleite - Columns (Seattle Weekly) Since you'll be new here, there is definitely a sense of local and not-local differentiation in the area. There are quite a few people who either relocated here long ago or are natives who don't really like the growth, traffic congestion, sprawl, and economic competition that the influx of new people has brought.

Denver: I also got, to a lesser extent, a sense of self-promotion and sensitivity (to criticism) from people in Denver. The main difference I saw was that people were a little more talkative and not quite as cliquish. While Denver also has a bit of resistance to what they see as Californication, I didn't hear as many complaints or comments about the influx of new residents there as I've heard here in the Seattle area. Since I have a family, I'd probably prefer the family oriented aspects of Denver. Seattle is not as family oriented -- more empty-nesters or Dual Income No Kids households. From what I've observed and from talking to people I know in Denver, though, despite its reputation for being better for married people with families, Denver's dating scene is not bad.

Both cities are dog-friendly, since you mentioned your pet, but Seattle is dog-friendly to the extreme. You shouldn't have a hard time finding accommodations here.

In contrast to DC, either place will be a cultural and social adjustment from the type A, more direct and aggressive environment you're used to there. You'll either see this as a positive or negative thing depending on your own personality. Some people, however, who expect it to be a positive change are surprised. You might go from being the mellow guy in your office to hearing people comment that they think all people from the East Coast are "rude" or too pushy (this may also be applied as an indirect criticism -- things like "Well, I know you people from back East are just like that, but we think that behavior's rude here.")

Others may post to the contrary, but you can get a much nicer condo for 300k in Denver than you can in Seattle. I don't think that 300k for a nice condo in a nice neighborhood is that realistic. I think 400k is more in the ballpark (still -- wait and see what the market does, maybe).

[my_2_cents]

Climate - is going to be very different that DC in both cases. Seattle is green and lush but it's also always on the cool side. They NEVER get the heat you get in DC! Denver is very dry but there are 4 seasons. Seattle there's 3 seasons of rain and summer is glorious.

Population - well both are much more conservative than DC. Seattle is more liberal than Denver and more cosmopolitan, but you'll probably find it a bit provincial compared to DC.

Housing costs - Denver, hands down. Prices are falling all over though. One thing to remember though is that Seattle is expensive but electricity is dirt cheap thank to hydroelectric power.

Traffic - I agree with Falling Waters. The drivers aren't as savvy. Traffic is traffic though - what can you do? Seattle's problem with traffic are the bridges. They don't want to build more of them and rightly so, to maintain the pristine beauty of the area. But those bridges are bottlenecks. You should find a place on the side of Lake Wash. where you work, but the Eastside is much blander than Seattle proper.

People - you know, they say easterners are rude, but in fact they are simply more straightforward and friendly. In both Denver and Seattle you will find clerks in the stores and waiters and so on very chatty and nice but it's hard to make friends. Also, there is a very strict protocol and people are easily offended and politically correct. Drives me nuts. Give me a New Yorker any day over that! Both cities lack diversity and culture compared to DC but Seattle has more than Denver.

Dog-friendly - Seattle hands down.

So there you have it from somebody who's lived in both cities and now lives back east:-)

[Fallingwaters]

Originally Posted by my_2_cents

People - you know, they say easterners are rude, but in fact they are simply more straightforward and friendly. In both Denver and Seattle you will find clerks in the stores and waiters and so on very chatty and nice but it's hard to make friends. Also, there is a very strict protocol and people are easily offended and politically correct. Drives me nuts. Give me a New Yorker any day over that! Both cities lack diversity and culture compared to DC but Seattle has more than Denver.

It's funny that you mention it. I'm from the east and it seems like bizarro-world here in that we consider friendly (saying hello, or striking up a conversation), they consider obnoxious and rude; what they consider polite (which is this silent trance, apparently), we think is unfriendly and standoffish. I also agree on the peculiar, unwritten social protocols (usually "enforced" with a dirty look or little comment) -- I believe some of this mentality is called nanny statism when these rules find their way into legislation.

[Inconceivable]

Thanks so much Fallingwaters and 2cents...you've both been very helpful. I did in fact use the Seattle Times link and read several "Uptight" articles as well as the older "freeze-out" one.

I think I'd love the Seattle setting and City itself...the housing prices not as much, particularly to buy on the east side of the Lake to avoid the bridges, which seems like the only sane commuting solution. The numbers I've read to date show while housing prices are falling nationally (even here in DC), Seattle's market has continued to increase so it will be interesting to see if the net effect catches up with the City any time soon.

Depending on what other authors might contribute to the topic, it's looking like I should investigate Denver more closely. I really enjoy the cosmopolitan aspects of DC (museums, great music, tons to do) but it would seem pretty fruitless to move to a city where making friends to take advantage of what Seattle has to offer would be so difficult to come by. How odd Seattle ranks so high on the "polite" meter but that people are described as so distant.

I've noticed a shift in DC personalities in the last decade, perhaps driven in part by the previous housing/economic boom and the nature of the money that's fueling the local economy, but basic courtesy has definitely taken a hit. I've actually come to appreciate the directness of people here, but the attitudes not so much. I've found the native Washingtonians much friendlier than the transient residents on the whole. Not knocking the city or its people in the least, but one of the sayings here given the political environment is "If you want a friend in DC, buy a dog." I guess depending on your professional circles and such, that adage can seem quite fitting at times. Sadly, everything I am reading about Seattle (albeit for very different reasons) indicates the social climate is rather chilly there as it is in DC.

I do not mean to offend anyone with my observations. I've just been doing A LOT of research and reading on this particular topic, but realise it's difficult to characterize what life is like for folks in any variety of cities based on reading.

Thanks again for your input.

[Fallingwaters]

Originally Posted by Inconceivable

Seattle's market has continued to increase so it will be interesting to see if the net effect catches up with the City any time soon.

The Puget Sound area (including Seattle) is also seeing a housing downturn -- it's just not as drastic as what's happening in other cities.

Originally Posted by Inconceivable

How odd Seattle ranks so high on the "polite"

Yeah, it's odd until you consider that the 3rd most polite city ranking way back in 2004 was arbitrarily done by an octogenarian etiquette teacher. It wasn't a survey.

Originally Posted by Inconceivable

I've noticed a shift in DC personalities in the last decade

To my understanding, DC has always been nuts. It has its good points, and its suburban housing market went insane, but people have generally been career focused, somewhat materialistic, and pretty direct, almost aggressive, there that I can remember (and this is going back 15 years) -- but also some of the wittiest and funniest people I've met as well. In the eighties and part of the 90's, DC was considered a crime infested rathole. Now it's called a transient city because there's a lot of work there but lots of people only stick around there a few years.

Also, why the "no offense" stuff; as far as I can tell, it's okay to gripe about DC. Everyone does no matter where they're from and few people seem to take it personally. Hell, go to a Redskins, Wizards, Nationals, or Capitals game there and you'll see more fans wearing clothing with the visiting team's logos.

Seattle, and to some extent Denver, it's a different story. In Seattle especially, people will get offended if someone criticizes the city. Pretty strong sense of civic pride here.

[darkwing2319]

Ok, so maybe my growing up in Washington state will prejudice my opinion, but if it were my choice to make, I'd STILL choose Seattle! The city is beautiful. It's a city with a small town feel. You can walk down the street and see the same people day after day. Those same people I might add will actually look you in the eye and say "Hi". The city is called the Emerald City because the "Sound" reflects the green from all the trees surrounding it. I miss it dearly and am jealous of the spot you seem to find yourself in...No disrespect to Denver mind you, but choose wisely.

[my_2_cents]

Denver is also standoffish. In both places people take huge offense if you say even the mildest thing that isn't fully in support of WA or CO. It's very odd considering they don't want a lot of people moving there.

I too miss Seattle though. I think the pull of these places is emotional - those mountains will do that to you.

In CO - if you aren't a skier and/or hiker be prepared to become one.

[npalleroni10]

Hi! Seattle's climate is better than Washington, D.C. or Denver, CO. Its climate has four seasons without extreme temperatures with all aspects of a four =-seasons, snow, moderate heat waves, thunder and lightning, fall colors, etc. Also, seattle's temperature variations are slight duirng the duration of a season, and so seasonal conditions are more distinct. That is, it won't snow in spring or fall, be warm, that is above 70 in winter, or be cold during the summer. Seattle also has incredibly splendid natural scenery and a low crime rate.

[south-to-west]

Originally Posted by Fallingwaters

Traffic: I've driven on the beltway and it's no picnic, but Seattle's traffic is more frustrating because it seems like people just drive slowly and city freeway and surface road infrastructure doesn't sustain the traffic levels. Traffic irritates me more here for that reason. While Denver also has congestion, I think its toll road that lets you bypass the city if you need to and the grid-like way the city was built maked it more efficient and traffic is better. Seattle has buses but no light rail as of yet. Denver also doesn't have a light rail infrastructure, but they appear to be making progress on getting one. Seattle and Puget Sound area voters keep turning down proposals for light rail and/or increasing the freeway capacity

Actually, Denver has a good light rail center with a few lines currently in operation that run from Dowtown to the suburbs. In the next 15 years, Dever will be undergoing the largest expansion of rail tranist in the country under their TREX program, adding several new light rail lines, several new commuter rail lines, and several new BRT lines. This is one area that Dever has the clear advantage over Seattle.