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Old 04-19-2018, 04:07 PM
 
714 posts, read 329,335 times
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You are going to hate Portland even more sorry to say. People in Portland are really angry for some reason. It's a lovely place but what a nutty angry attitude people have there. And the weather is worse than Seattle believe it or not - the summers are hot and the winters can be very oppressive with more rain and snow/ice.
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Old 04-19-2018, 08:58 PM
 
Location: Kansas City, MISSOURI
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These threads with these generalizations about people in City X are just so ... stupid. I even started a thread on it a while ago:

The people in [insert city/county/state here] are NOT unfriendly!!!
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Old 04-19-2018, 11:07 PM
Status: "FREE CASCADIA!" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: Denver, Colorado
3,243 posts, read 3,983,195 times
Reputation: 4163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inkpoe View Post
I live just outside the Nashville area. I still chuckle at the complaints about the traffic, the COL rise/expensive here-- it's just not that bad comparatively. That 65-70k/yr would be pretty comfortable here. My husband currently makes just under that, and we're comfortable enough for now (single income for a family of 5)-- but I live waaaay out in the boonies where it's possible to get a house rental for ~$650/mo. But don't come to my town, it's kind of a sh##hole. Like I was saying in the your Nashville thread, my town is like Shelton, Wa of the 90s.

Charlotte was kind of surprising town for me. I wasn't really expecting it to be a decent sized town or as urban TBH. My BIL recently visited Charlotte (and Asheville).... absolutely loved it and is now wanting to move there. If you knew him, you'd realize this is just bizarre. I'm very surprised he's willing to even think about stepping out of his little bubble. He lives in Ridgefield (Vancouver area) and keeps yammering on about how he can buy 3 houses in Charlotte for the price of one in his area.

Dear husband and I are still trying to debate whether to stay in TN. It's hard to beat the low COL, relaxed ambience and congeniality here. TN has a lot of offer (as does NC). I can't complain. But I also appreciated WA... at least I got to enjoy it while it was still under the radar.
I'm glad to hear things are going well with you in Tennessee. Sorry to hear you are living in some small podunk town you don't like. I know what you are talking about Shelton. Actually, I live not so far from Shelton over in Lacey and have met a lot of people who live there or lived there and it seems like all they have is horror stories about the meth heads and sketchy people. I've lived in Mount Vernon for a year, which is more or less like a bigger Shelton and use to travel into Burlington which was even seedier than Shelton. A real blue collar, depressed, rugged train town that literally was built around its railroad tracks and was a big lumber town at one point and still is a little bit. I remember going into one of the local bars in Burlington, WA and sitting down. It was the most depressing bar experience I have ever had and I have been to my share of seedy, dingy and sleazy dive bars. Everyone sat around with a faceless expression and nobody was smiling. It was like everyone was upset about something. They would just sit there and order one drink, then another and another and another. I literally witnessed in like 30 minutes of sitting there, many people consuming like over six drinks. It was so depressing, like people would go to the bar just to sit around one another and quietly drink themselves to death. It was kind of sad, because Burlington and Mount Vernon have beautiful surroundings.

Anyhow, if I end up deciding to go to Nashville, I may hit up your forum with more questions and appreciate your help. Being a Northwest to Southern transplant, I am sure you would have lots of valuable information. One concern I had about moving to Nashville is I hear the murder rate is skyrocketing and crime is out of control. I'm not sure how valid that is, but I was worried that with not being able to afford a more expensive place downtown, I may be forced to live in a sketchy neighborhood in the city. I'd probably not want to live in the suburbs of Nashville, at least nothing too far out.



Quote:
Originally Posted by barq View Post
Well said, and it represents the exact sort of passive-aggressiveness you described: directing mean-spirited remarks toward anyone who fails to validate their own self-image/opinion, then immediately pretending to take the "high road," as if it somehow absolves them of their transgressions.

Unfortunately that behavior isn't confined to any particular city, and is very much an American disease. (Though it varies by degree. Also consider how happy and healthy people tend to live, and how little of that involves time spent directing inner anger toward strangers on the Internet.)
Ahhh.. Well, Barq, isn't that why the internet was invented, so people can trash one another to their hearts content? Yeah, of course, what better way to tear another human being to pieces then to insult his entire humanity and then wish him a nice day.. Ahhh.. Soo Seattlesque


Quote:
Originally Posted by James Bond 007 View Post
These threads with these generalizations about people in City X are just so ... stupid. I even started a thread on it a while ago:

The people in [insert city/county/state here] are NOT unfriendly!!!
Mr. Bond.. James Bond.. Oh crap.. I am so happy I could finally actually address someone in this way.. I've been wanting to since I was a child and never had the opportunity, so, first, let me thank you for your user name.

007, I actually took time to read your thread and found it somewhat enjoyable. In fact, there is some truth in what you write here, in the fact that lots of people will complain about anywhere they are. It is human nature to be dissatisfied and feel unfulfilled. That is why we humans must strive to be thankful for the little things in life and not to expect too much. Indeed, I expect very little of the Puget Sound and it took me 6 years to finally come to my ultimate opinion of this place. I've tried fighting it off like it was me and part of it is me. Indeed, the Puget Sound is heaven on earth for some people. Some people enjoy being alone, being left alone, uber liberal politics, gray skies year round. I always said the Puget Sound is an introverted person's dream. If you are the kind of guy who wants people to leave you alone, then this is the place to live. And, in some ways, I do appreciate that my neighbors never talk to me, wave or say anything to me. Crap, I actually am not even one of those people who wants to be friends with my neighbors. After being tortured by my neighbors living in Ballard, I think having neighbors who don't bother you is a good thing. Of course, my neighbors were drug addicts who played their music until dawn and I could never sleep. Also, when I would attempt to talk to them they would not answer their door and would ignore me walking down the hallway like I didn't exist. So, maybe a little neighbor friendliness is good. However, the upside is that living in a subdivision now everyone minds their own business and is fairly quiet. It would be nice if some of them were a little more friendly and not give me cold stares or pretend I am not there; but, whatever.

However, I do want to challenge your theory that all places are friendly and that all complaints are invalid. I am a mathematically minded individual and I tend to look at things from a more analytical perspective. Yes, I even intend on building a software algorithm that can comb through the various threads on various forums like this and build a consensus of such complaints like mine and formulate a scientific type of calculation that would produce statistical analysis of the various complaints from various cities/metro areas and the total unique number of people who have made the complaints. Maybe, with a more advanced AI algorithm we can even increase the granularity of such filters and even have some demographic information included in those who make the complaint.

My ultimate point is that every person will complain about every place on Earth and probably the universe too. Shangri-La doesn't exist anywhere. However, it is not the fact that somebody on this Earth made a complaint about a certain city that invalidates their claims, but rather it is the distribution and multitude of complaints about a specific area that give the complaints validity. Some people may say Maui has the ugliest beaches in the world. DOes that mean Maui has ugly beaches? Others may say that Lubbock , TX is the most scenic and beautiful place in the world. Does that mean Lubbock, TX is the most scenic place in the world? What we must do is build a consensus and it is through the number of such complaints and the diversity of those complaining (e.g. Super Liberals may always complain about Biloxi, MS, and Super Conservatives about San Francisco, CA), etc.

When all these measures are taken into account then you can truly build a consensus and deeper understanding about an area and what complaints are being made. What I think is that if you dig through the internet and even through the City Data forum, you will find more negative posts about the Seattle area than just about any other metro on Earth that we would all consider "livable". Yes, obviously, places like Detroit or Memphis, will have plenty of people complaining because of some very serious problems. Then again, those who complain are not always wrong, especially if many other people are making the same complaint.

Can you tell me any other city that is world known for its "Freeze" than Seattle? I have friends in other countries who told me they would worry about living in Seattle because of the "Seattle Freeze". Everywhere you go, you hear people talking about it. This phenomenon of a Seattle Freeze isn't just some Seattle bashing by outsiders, but even was addressed in Seattle Pi and other local media outlets. The Seattle Pi article was trying to give advice to people on how not to be depressed and ways to make friends.. I find it funny that a local paper has to explain to people how to fight off depression and how to socialize with other humans.

Anyhow, I rest my case. It is not the fact that people complain, it is how many people complain, the demographics of the people who make the complaint and what type of complaint is being made. Many people across the board, even die-hard liberals are in full agreement with me about Seattle's icy atmosphere.

Last edited by RotseCherut; 04-19-2018 at 11:24 PM..
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Old 04-19-2018, 11:17 PM
 
Location: Seattle
5,659 posts, read 4,455,975 times
Reputation: 3367
Quote:
Originally Posted by RotseCherut View Post
I'm glad to hear things are going well with you in Tennessee. Sorry to hear you are living in some small podunk town you don't like. I know what you are talking about Shelton. Actually, I live not so far from Shelton over in Lacey and have met a lot of people who live there or lived there and it seems like all they have is horror stories about the meth heads and sketchy people. I've lived in Mount Vernon for a year, which is more or less like a bigger Shelton and use to travel into Burlington which was even seedier than Shelton. A real blue collar, depressed, rugged train town that literally was built around its railroad tracks and was a big lumber town at one point and still is a little bit. I remember going into one of the local bars in Burlington, WA and sitting down. It was the most depressing bar experience I have ever had and I have been to my share of seedy, dingy and sleazy dive bars. Everyone sat around with a faceless expression and nobody was smiling. It was like everyone was upset about something. They would just sit there and order one drink, then another and another and another. I literally witnessed in like 30 minutes of sitting there, many people consuming like over six drinks. It was so depressing, like people would go to the bar just to sit around one another and quietly drink themselves to death. It was kind of sad, because Burlington and Mount Vernon have beautiful surroundings.

Anyhow, if I end up deciding to go to Nashville, I may hit up your forum with more questions and appreciate your help. Being a Northwest to Southern transplant, I am sure you would have lots of valuable information. One concern I had about moving to Nashville is I hear the murder rate is skyrocketing and crime is out of control. I'm not sure how valid that is, but I was worried that with not being able to afford a more expensive place downtown, I may be forced to live in a sketchy neighborhood in the city. I'd probably not want to live in the suburbs of Nashville, at least nothing too far out.




Ahhh.. Well, Barq, isn't that why the internet was invented, so people can trash one another to their hearts content? Yeah, of course, what better way to tear another human being to pieces then to insult his entire humanity and then wish him a nice day.. Ahhh.. Soo Seattlesque




Mr. Bond.. James Bond.. Oh crap.. I am so happy I could finally actually address someone in this way.. I've been wanting to since I was a child and never had the opportunity, so, first, let me thank you for your user name.

007, I actually took time to read your thread and found it somewhat enjoyable. In fact, there is some truth in what you write here, in the fact that lots of people will complain about anywhere they are. It is human nature to be dissatisfied and feel unfulfilled. That is why we humans must strive to be thankful for the little things in life and not to expect too much. Indeed, I expect very little of the Puget Sound and it took me 6 years to finally come to my ultimate opinion of this place. I've tried fighting it off like it was me and part of it is me. Indeed, the Puget Sound is heaven on earth for some people. Some people enjoy being alone, being left alone, uber liberal politics, gray skies year round. I always said the Puget Sound is an introverted person's dream. If you are the kind of guy who wants people to leave you alone, then this is the place to live. And, in some ways, I do appreciate that my neighbors never talk to me, wave or say anything to me. Crap, I actually am not even one of those people who wants to be friends with my neighbors. After being tortured by my neighbors living in Ballard, I think having neighbors who don't bother you is a good thing. Of course, my neighbors were drug addicts who played their music until dawn and I could never sleep. Also, when I would attempt to talk to them they would not answer their door and would ignore me walking down the hallway like I didn't exist. So, maybe a little neighbor friendliness is good. However, the upside is that living in a subdivision now everyone minds their own
business and is fairly quiet. It would be nice if some of them were a little more friendly and not give me cold stares or pretend I am not there; but, whatever.

However, I do what to challenge your theory that all places are friendly and that all complaints are invalid. I am a mathematically minded individual and I tend to look at things from a more analytical perspective. Yes, I even intend on building a software algorithm that can comb through the various threads on various forums like this and build a consensus of such complaints like mine and formulate a scientific type of calculation that would produce statistical analysis of the various complaints from various cities/metro areas and the total unique number of people who have made the complaints. Maybe, with a more advanced AI algorithm we can even increase the granularity of such filters and even have some demographic information included in those who make the complaint.

My ultimate point is that every person will complain about every place on Earth and probably the universe too. Shangri-La doesn't exist anywhere. However, it is not the fact that somebody on this Earth made a complaint about a certain city that invalidates their claims, but rather it is the distribution and multitude of complaints about a specific area that give the complaints validity. Some people may say Maui has the ugliest beaches in the world. DOes that mean Maui has ugly beaches? Others may say that Lubbock , TX is the most scenic and beautiful place in the world. Does that mean Lubbock, TX is the most scenic place in the world? What we must do is build a consensus and it is through the number of such complaints and the diversity of those complaining (e.g. Super Liberals may always complain about Biloxi, MS, and Super Conservatives about San Francisco, CA), etc.

When all these measures are taken into account then you can truly build a consensus and deeper understanding about an area and what complaints are being made. What I think is that if you dig through the internet and even through the City Data forum, you will find more negative posts about the Seattle area than just about any other metro on Earth that we would all consider "livable". Yes, obviously, places like Detroit or Memphis, will have plenty of people complaining because of some very serious problems. Then again, those who complain are not always wrong, especially in many other people are making the same complaint.

Can you tell me any other city that is world known for its "Freeze" than Seattle? I have friends in another countries who told me they would worry about living in Seattle because of the "Seattle Freeze". Everywhere you go, you hear people talking about it. This phenomenon of a Seattle Freeze isn't just some Seattle bashing by outsiders, but even was addressed in Seattle Pi and other local media outlets. The Seattle Pi article was trying to give advice to people on how not to be depressed and ways to make friends.. I find it funny that a local paper has to explain to people how to fight off depression and how to socialize with other humans.

Anyhow, I rest my case. It is not the fact that people complain, it is how many people complain, the demographics of the people who make the complaint and what type of complaint is being made. Many people across the board, even die-hard liberals are in full agreement with me about Seattle's icy atmosphere.
Damn Rotse, gotta hand it to you, that was very well written. You almost convinced me but you know I'm much too cheery for that . Love you bro, happy trails. -Homes
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Old 04-20-2018, 10:14 AM
 
Location: Kansas City, MISSOURI
8,844 posts, read 2,622,845 times
Reputation: 6767
Quote:
Originally Posted by RotseCherut View Post
...
Mr. Bond.. James Bond.. Oh crap.. I am so happy I could finally actually address someone in this way.. I've been wanting to since I was a child and never had the opportunity, so, first, let me thank you for your user name....
I have:

1. Grew up in NJ
2. Went to college in Charlotte. Plus I have relatives and family in the Raleigh area and am very familiar with NC
3. Spent 27 yeas in Washington state, most in Seattle but also 3 years in Spokane
4. Have now been in Kansas City almost 3 years

Four different cities in completely disparate parts of the country. There is NO difference in the friendliness or unfriendliness of the people in all 4 areas.

I think what happens is that somebody grows up somewhere, and that place they grew up in, they interacted a lot with the other kids (and adults) in their neighborhood, the kids in school, etc. Kids are simply more social than adults (this includes teenagers). The life cycle of a kid and teenager simply involves being (essentially) FORCED into situations where you pretty much have no choice but to interact with a whole lot of other people. As a result you tend to make tons of friends (and no doubt, enemies).

At some point that kid/teenager grows up and becomes an adult. They leave their home town, go to college, and then look for a job. When they do this - and WHEREVER they do that - they find that they have a harder time making friends than they did when they were younger. As they grow older, they find that people (adults) don't just jump out at you to make friends. Adults are simply too busy doing other things to want to spend a lot of time hanging out with other people just for the sake of socializing. And the older one gets, the less time they have to do this (until perhaps they retire). It's not that older people become less friendly, it's just that they get too busy with other aspects of life - work, kids, etc. The people who *do* somehow manage to have a circle of friends have typically done so because they belong to some church, belong to some club or organization, work in a business where socializing is extremely important, or have met other people who are the parents of their kids' friends. Those adults who *don't* do any of that, aren't going to be forced into interactions with other people, and thus, are going to find meeting other people and making friends more difficult.

Alas, this does not occur to these people who are having a hard time making friends, so they chalk it up to the "unfriendliness" of the place they now live in. But ... it has nothing to do with unfriendliness, it has everything to do with naturally changing social patterns of getting older.
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Old 04-20-2018, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Kansas City, MISSOURI
8,844 posts, read 2,622,845 times
Reputation: 6767
BTW, given what I explained above, here is my explanation for "the Seattle Freeze."

1. Seattle gets A LOT of 20-somethings moving there because it's a hip and fashionable place to be with all the mountains, water, etc. It's simply the kind of place a lot of 20-somethings are going to want to move to. However, because they're only in their 20's (and some 30's I suppose), they are the ones most susceptible to the phenomenon I described above: Given how recently they were teenagers (and even college can be somewhat like high school, depending) they have this very recent image in their heads as to what sociability should be like. They have only recently become adults and are rookies at experiencing exactly what being "an adult" entails. Basically, Seattle has a high proportion of people who are likely to be disappointed at the social norms of being an adult, without realizing that what they're experiencing is nothing more than the social norms of being an adult.
2. Probably the high % of techies there has something to do with it. Techies spend most of their lives sitting in front of a computer, and they tend to be somewhat introverted. Unless they're in sales, they don't have socially-focused jobs and so aren't going to forced into social situations. You're not likely to strike up a conversation with them if they happen to be your neighbor because they're putting in 60 hour workweeks at Amazon or MS and are too tired otherwise to go to their next-door neighbor's BBQ.

Anecdotally, I also think the high proportion of Asian immigrants has an effect: If English isn't your first language you might not want to have a lot of chatty conversations with native English speakers. If you're an Indian most of your friends are going to be Indians; if you're Korean most of your friends are going to be Koreans. And so on. It's not that these people are unfriendly, it's just that they're understandably mostly socializing with their own kind. I figured this out the last place I lived in near Everett. I had a lot of Asian neighbors but did not talk to them that often. When I did, I couldn't understand much of what they said (and likely, vice-versa).
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Old 04-20-2018, 12:42 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
77,751 posts, read 69,627,168 times
Reputation: 75432
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Bond 007 View Post

I think what happens is that somebody grows up somewhere, and that place they grew up in, they interacted a lot with the other kids (and adults) in their neighborhood, the kids in school, etc. Kids are simply more social than adults (this includes teenagers). The life cycle of a kid and teenager simply involves being (essentially) FORCED into situations where you pretty much have no choice but to interact with a whole lot of other people. As a result you tend to make tons of friends (and no doubt, enemies).

At some point that kid/teenager grows up and becomes an adult. They leave their home town, go to college, and then look for a job. When they do this - and WHEREVER they do that - they find that they have a harder time making friends than they did when they were younger. As they grow older, they find that people (adults) don't just jump out at you to make friends. Adults are simply too busy doing other things to want to spend a lot of time hanging out with other people just for the sake of socializing. And the older one gets, the less time they have to do this (until perhaps they retire). It's not that older people become less friendly, it's just that they get too busy with other aspects of life - work, kids, etc. The people who *do* somehow manage to have a circle of friends have typically done so because they belong to some church, belong to some club or organization, work in a business where socializing is extremely important, or have met other people who are the parents of their kids' friends. Those adults who *don't* do any of that, aren't going to be forced into interactions with other people, and thus, are going to find meeting other people and making friends more difficult.

Alas, this does not occur to these people who are having a hard time making friends, so they chalk it up to the "unfriendliness" of the place they now live in. But ... it has nothing to do with unfriendliness, it has everything to do with naturally changing social patterns of getting older.
No, that's not what complaints about the Seattle Freeze are about. Many of them are posted by adults who lived elsewhere, and found people to be friendly in a random, neighborly way, out in public, while in Seattle--zip. Nada. Freeze. People in some areas of the US are naturally outgoing, people in other areas are not. Someone on a recent thread explained that Seattle is a lot like the upper Midwest, and its Scandinavian heritage. It was a a brilliantly insightful post. The parallels with Seattle are not only in the ethnic history of the place, but also the weather, which is somewhat similar to the upper Midwest. And there have been posts by others, who are comparing Seattle sociability (the lack thereof) with their experience relocating to other parts of the country for jobs (obviously, as adults).

Oversimplifications don't help us understand the phenomenon better. It's not about childhood playground environments vs. adult environments.
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Old 04-20-2018, 12:49 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
77,751 posts, read 69,627,168 times
Reputation: 75432
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Bond 007 View Post
BTW, given what I explained above, here is my explanation for "the Seattle Freeze."

1. Seattle gets A LOT of 20-somethings moving there because it's a hip and fashionable place to be with all the mountains, water, etc. It's simply the kind of place a lot of 20-somethings are going to want to move to. However, because they're only in their 20's (and some 30's I suppose), they are the ones most susceptible to the phenomenon I described above: Given how recently they were teenagers (and even college can be somewhat like high school, depending) they have this very recent image in their heads as to what sociability should be like. They have only recently become adults and are rookies at experiencing exactly what being "an adult" entails. Basically, Seattle has a high proportion of people who are likely to be disappointed at the social norms of being an adult, without realizing that what they're experiencing is nothing more than the social norms of being an adult.
2. Probably the high % of techies there has something to do with it. Techies spend most of their lives sitting in front of a computer, and they tend to be somewhat introverted. Unless they're in sales, they don't have socially-focused jobs and so aren't going to forced into social situations. You're not likely to strike up a conversation with them if they happen to be your neighbor because they're putting in 60 hour workweeks at Amazon or MS and are too tired otherwise to go to their next-door neighbor's BBQ.

Anecdotally, I also think the high proportion of Asian immigrants has an effect: If English isn't your first language you might not want to have a lot of chatty conversations with native English speakers. If you're an Indian most of your friends are going to be Indians; if you're Korean most of your friends are going to be Koreans. And so on. It's not that these people are unfriendly, it's just that they're understandably mostly socializing with their own kind. I figured this out the last place I lived in near Everett. I had a lot of Asian neighbors but did not talk to them that often. When I did, I couldn't understand much of what they said (and likely, vice-versa).
But the Seattle Freeze was a known phenomenon long before tech development in the area, before Seattle was hip, and before significant Asian immigration to the area. Back in the day, Seattle's Asians were mainly home-grown. Many grew up speaking English, though there parents may not have grown yup with English.

Time-depth in analyzing the issue is very helpful. It's not a recent phenom.
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Old 04-20-2018, 01:48 PM
 
Location: Kansas City, MISSOURI
8,844 posts, read 2,622,845 times
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I moved to Seattle in '88 and don't recall hearing anything about the Seattle Freeze until somewhere in the 2000's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Freeze
Quote:
The Seattle Freeze refers to a belief that it is especially difficult to make new friends (particularly for transplants from other cities) in the city of Seattle, Washington. According to KUOW radio, a 2005 Seattle Times article was the oldest reference to the term found.
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Old 04-20-2018, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Kansas City, MISSOURI
8,844 posts, read 2,622,845 times
Reputation: 6767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
No, that's not what complaints about the Seattle Freeze are about. Many of them are posted by adults who lived elsewhere, and found people to be friendly in a random, neighborly way, out in public, while in Seattle--zip. Nada. Freeze. People in some areas of the US are naturally outgoing, people in other areas are not. Someone on a recent thread explained that Seattle is a lot like the upper Midwest, and its Scandinavian heritage. It was a a brilliantly insightful post. The parallels with Seattle are not only in the ethnic history of the place, but also the weather, which is somewhat similar to the upper Midwest. And there have been posts by others, who are comparing Seattle sociability (the lack thereof) with their experience relocating to other parts of the country for jobs (obviously, as adults).

Oversimplifications don't help us understand the phenomenon better. It's not about childhood playground environments vs. adult environments.
As I said, I have not found people in the 4 different places I've lived to be any different from one another in that regard.
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