Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Laws aren’t being enforced, people commit crimes with impunity, the city is being trashed, needles and feces on public sidewalks, innocent people’s lives are literally being put at risk and sometimes taken. And it’s all because drug addicts are enabled and even coddled...
But city leaders have been aware of this issue for quite some time and have been categorically ineffective at addressing the issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bergun
Another thing that strikes me as odd is that the city's leadership has basically been invisible lately. And if seen, they, as an individual or as an unified group, are not addressing any real issues we are now facing...
Seriously, has the mayor, her staff or any member(s) of the city counsel proposed any realistic plans of action yet? I'm being totally sincere with this question. Also!! Being totally honest, I've seen a slight increase of a police presence near the Elliot Book Company and by Everyday Music in the Capital Hill area, but no proactive enforcement actions during these observations.
I know it's tempting to look for simple solutions to complicated issues, but like it or not, there aren't any.
Mentioned earlier in this thread, and as you'll see with even a brief search on the web, pointing at the Mayor and city council and asking for the City to solve this problem is aiming for the wrong targets. Under Washington state law and numerous - as is MANY - State and federal court rulings in Washington and elsewhere, the City doesn't have the power nor the authority (never mind the resources) to do the "lock 'em up" actions so many people seem to advocate.
First, while the City of Seattle runs the local police department, the administration of justice in Washington is a county and state function. Seattle's municipal court only deals with things like traffic infractions - anything bigger is handled by the county courts, over which the Mayor and city council have no authority. It's state law that's being enforced, and if arrested, homeless/drug offenders/public poopers et al are sent to the County jail.
That same county government has been starved by the voters for resources to build adequate jail or treatment facilities, again and again. When you look at your ballot guide, how many times have you looked at the campaign statements filed by candidates for county or state judges? Be honest. And the county prosecutors offices have such long court dockets and so few prosecuting attorneys (because of those same budget shortfalls) that they can't prosecute the perps anyway.
Meanwhile, the courts - up to both the State and US Supreme Courts - have repeatedly ruled on the guidelines for "involuntary commitment" - the means of forcing drug abusers into treatment or off the streets. Again and again, the courts have ruled that unless a person can be shown - convincingly -that he or she poses immediate danger to him/herself or to others, then habeas corpus (US Constitution) kicks in and 72 hours later they have to be released or charged with a crime.
But because there aren't enough prosecutors and not enough room in the jails, this arrest-wait-and-release process simply is skipped - by local cops, county sheriffs, state patrol, whoever - because the cost to the public of pointless detention and brief incarceration is very high. So the street people don't get arrested in the first place. I know benefit/cost problems aren't sexy and worthy of TV segments, but that's where the rubber meets the road.
So rant all you want at the Mayor or the city council for dereliction of duty in this business, but understand that, aside from making nice speeches, there isn't much those elected officials can do to solve the problem. Instead, look to the county councils and the state legislature if you want to have the right targets in your sights.
I know it's tempting to look for simple solutions to complicated issues, but like it or not, there aren't any.
Mentioned earlier in this thread, and as you'll see with even a brief search on the web, pointing at the Mayor and city council and asking for the City to solve this problem is aiming for the wrong targets. Under Washington state law and numerous - as is MANY - State and federal court rulings in Washington and elsewhere, the City doesn't have the power nor the authority (never mind the resources) to do the "lock 'em up" actions so many people seem to advocate.
First, while the City of Seattle runs the local police department, the administration of justice in Washington is a county and state function. Seattle's municipal court only deals with things like traffic infractions - anything bigger is handled by the county courts, over which the Mayor and city council have no authority. It's state law that's being enforced, and if arrested, homeless/drug offenders/public poopers et al are sent to the County jail.
That same county government has been starved by the voters for resources to build adequate jail or treatment facilities, again and again. When you look at your ballot guide, how many times have you looked at the campaign statements filed by candidates for county or state judges? Be honest. And the county prosecutors offices have such long court dockets and so few prosecuting attorneys (because of those same budget shortfalls) that they can't prosecute the perps anyway.
Meanwhile, the courts - up to both the State and US Supreme Courts - have repeatedly ruled on the guidelines for "involuntary commitment" - the means of forcing drug abusers into treatment or off the streets. Again and again, the courts have ruled that unless a person can be shown - convincingly -that he or she poses immediate danger to him/herself or to others, then habeas corpus (US Constitution) kicks in and 72 hours later they have to be released or charged with a crime.
But because there aren't enough prosecutors and not enough room in the jails, this arrest-wait-and-release process simply is skipped - by local cops, county sheriffs, state patrol, whoever - because the cost to the public of pointless detention and brief incarceration is very high. So the street people don't get arrested in the first place. I know benefit/cost problems aren't sexy and worthy of TV segments, but that's where the rubber meets the road.
So rant all you want at the Mayor or the city council for dereliction of duty in this business, but understand that, aside from making nice speeches, there isn't much those elected officials can do to solve the problem. Instead, look to the county councils and the state legislature if you want to have the right targets in your sights.
Gardyloo, you are 100% correct and the law is the law... No arguing that.
I know that our local court system is both county and State, but at least in the county court system, Seattle is basically the "county" and the county goes in the direction Seattle decides to go... No excuse.
As for the Seattle city council, if they're not making the tough decisions for the city, why do we have a full-time city council, drawing a full-time generous pay check and equally generious benefits package... Including all those special perks too?? If they're basically a powerless group of individuals, who are still missing in action, why don't the power that be redirect the resources and funds directly to the county council, if they're really the ones with power?? Since Seattle's elected officials cannot or will not make the need tough decisions that need to be made, why have them in a full-time position??
Seriously, why have a full-time city council if they're not serving the community's needs? To save money, make this a part-time position where they can meet once a week for 8 hours? They're not working anyway, it's proof that we can survive with only a part-time city council. Plus, maybe if it was a part-time position, people with true concerns, love for the city and the willingness to make those tough decisions, might run to represent the people of Seattle, on a part-time bases. This might also take out most of the big money that "buys off" the city council and also removes the professional and useless political class since there will be no money or those special perks to be made from serving a part-time position.
The mayor's office has also been missing in action as well... Not one word about any plan of action or words that they're seeking guidance from the county or the State with this crisis. Yes, the mayor can order some tough choices to be made, as the chief executive official of the city, but that's not going to happen since it means taking a stance on an issue.
I know Seattle cannot make State laws, but they're pretty good at going after gun rights and taxing whatever, but I fail to believe that the cannot enact more "local ordinance" at least to regain some control within the city limits.
Also, does it take County and/or State officials to tell the Seattle Police Department to do their constitutional duty and enforce the laws at are already on the book???? If so, than SPD, needs to fall directly under both the county sheriff's office or the State Police. Yes I know that will never happen, but SPD is basically useless at this point.
Again, the law is the law, but that's why we elect officials (And pay them very well.) and vote on changes to the current laws or make new laws. Basically, what it looks like to me is that the system is now leaderless and lacks the guts to make the tough decisions that need to be made. Sorry, I don't believe in giving them, the mayor's office and the city council, a free pass... They hold the working and tax paying public accountable, so why is it so dang hard for them to be held accountable as elected paid full-time officials???
I know that our local court system is both county and State, but at least in the county court system, Seattle is basically the "county" and the county goes in the direction Seattle decides to go... No excuse.
No, it's not. Seattle is barely a third of King County's population. There are many times that the city and the county have gone in opposite directions, on social issues, housing, transportation, whatever.
Quote:
If they're basically a powerless group of individuals, who are still missing in action, why don't the power that be redirect the resources and funds directly to the county council, if they're really the ones with power?? Since Seattle's elected officials cannot or will not make the need tough decisions that need to be made, why have them in a full-time position??
Who says they're powerless? They have plenty of power - public debt, zoning and land use, traffic and streets, public utilities, parks... lots of things. They DON'T have power over the administration of law and justice, nor any to speak of over education.
Mind you, I'm not excusing their forays into realms (like homelessness and affordable housing) where they often don't know what they're talking about. They don't help their (political) causes by mouthing off over things that they don't control, but that's hardly a phenomenon limited to city council members. But they have a lot of things they DO control.
Quote:
Also, does it take County and/or State officials to tell the Seattle Police Department to do their constitutional duty and enforce the laws at are already on the book???? If so, than SPD, needs to fall directly under both the county sheriff's office or the State Police. Yes I know that will never happen, but SPD is basically useless at this point.
I'm sure that many cops would agree with you, but they're part of a city that has to live with a balanced budget, and wasting public money with arrests and 72-hour incarcerations that will be reversed immediately due to lack of prosecutorial or facility capacity is not working in the public interest, when those same resources could be deployed going after actual criminals. Just my view.
Look, if you want to change the way things are done, then the one and only means available to you is to become an educated and active voter. If state law was revised to enable something like the Rhode Island approach (which I'm not sure works all that well in RI, by the way) then it would happen after the state legislature was convinced of the merits, and after some (probably many) court cases in the meantime.
If you want jail capacity in King County to be expanded so that more street people can be put away for 72 hours, then lobby your county council person (quick - who is that?) to authorize more bonds. If you want judges to be tougher on public pee perps, vote for them.
But yelling at the city council for inaction in arresting street people is like yelling at Pete Carroll for the Mariners' performance.
No, it's not. Seattle is barely a third of King County's population. There are many times that the city and the county have gone in opposite directions, on social issues, housing, transportation, whatever.
Who says they're powerless? They have plenty of power - public debt, zoning and land use, traffic and streets, public utilities, parks... lots of things. They DON'T have power over the administration of law and justice, nor any to speak of over education.
Mind you, I'm not excusing their forays into realms (like homelessness and affordable housing) where they often don't know what they're talking about. They don't help their (political) causes by mouthing off over things that they don't control, but that's hardly a phenomenon limited to city council members. But they have a lot of things they DO control.
I'm sure that many cops would agree with you, but they're part of a city that has to live with a balanced budget, and wasting public money with arrests and 72-hour incarcerations that will be reversed immediately due to lack of prosecutorial or facility capacity is not working in the public interest, when those same resources could be deployed going after actual criminals. Just my view.
Look, if you want to change the way things are done, then the one and only means available to you is to become an educated and active voter. If state law was revised to enable something like the Rhode Island approach (which I'm not sure works all that well in RI, by the way) then it would happen after the state legislature was convinced of the merits, and after some (probably many) court cases in the meantime.
If you want jail capacity in King County to be expanded so that more street people can be put away for 72 hours, then lobby your county council person (quick - who is that?) to authorize more bonds. If you want judges to be tougher on public pee perps, vote for them.
But yelling at the city council for inaction in arresting street people is like yelling at Pete Carroll for the Mariners' performance.
Gardyloo, thank you for the outstanding post and point taken!!
The State of Rhode Island has decided to not just let people like this stay addicted and wreck their communities. The success rate of its grads is 93%.
I'm suspicious about this aspect of the show. It's kind of a mantra for documentarians that you can't do a video about a problem, without offering some solution. It's not really intended to inform the debate, it's just a "fix" the producers put in to make the video more acceptable.
The interview with the multiple offender. He's more common than most people would believe. Many (most?) of the people hanging out in the camps, I suspect, are like him. I don't know, of course, because any information of that sort is kept hidden from the public view. How much will it cost trying to get him sober and law-abiding? Would the MAT - type program be compulsory? Right now, it's only for convicts,and is incredibly expensive per person. If people are moving to Seattle because they can do drugs without getting arrested, how are you going to get them in these programs? If criminals know they can walk into a store and take stuff and not get arrested, how are they going to be put in a program, at huge public expense, if they are not arrested?
The Rhode Island program is offered as a suggestion for Washington. Washingtonians don't seem to want to make anything easy for themselves, hence, the R.I. program is probably going to be punted by lawmakers and common citizens. I look at it like this: you can lead a horse to water but you can't make 'em drink.
If you like what you've got - if it fits the liberal ideology - fine. Go ahead and lie in that stink. Seattle is being systematically ruined and it should be a huge alarm to anyone who cares about it. Visitors to Seattle won't be coming back. That could be used as an example of how bad its gotten there. Seattle's situation shouldn't be looked at as some kind of modern example of tolerance. Tolerance is one thing, stupidity and ignorance is something far, far different.
Seattle has become a zoo for humans - a display of how not to display a beautiful city with promise.
The Rhode Island program is offered as a suggestion for Washington. Washingtonians don't seem to want to make anything easy for themselves, hence, the R.I. program is probably going to be punted by lawmakers and common citizens. I look at it like this: you can lead a horse to water but you can't make 'em drink.
If you like what you've got - if it fits the liberal ideology - fine. Go ahead and lie in that stink. Seattle is being systematically ruined and it should be a huge alarm to anyone who cares about it. Visitors to Seattle won't be coming back. That could be used as an example of how bad its gotten there. Seattle's situation shouldn't be looked at as some kind of modern example of tolerance. Tolerance is one thing, stupidity and ignorance is something far, far different.
Seattle has become a zoo for humans - a display of how not to display a beautiful city with promise.
I agree to some extent, but hope is always there. This city is now too big to fail. What is needed is a moderate government that can reflect off each other and bring issues to a slow simmer. How does the city get there? Leadership. I like the current mayor Durkan I will like her even more if she can present a plan for a more "moderate" Seattle. Not getting rid of the ultra-liberalism necessarily, but opening up the channels and encouraging more moderate opinions. This city can survive. In fact, it must survive.
I agree to some extent, but hope is always there. This city is now too big to fail. What is needed is a moderate government that can reflect off each other and bring issues to a slow simmer. How does the city get there? Leadership. I like the current mayor Durkan I will like her even more if she can present a plan for a more "moderate" Seattle. Not getting rid of the ultra-liberalism necessarily, but opening up the channels and encouraging more moderate opinions. This city can survive. In fact, it must survive.
I agree with you, but with the current leadership from the mayor's office, city council and the county prosecutor's office, nothing is going to change in Seattle/King County. The ultra liberalism is here to stay... Even if it destroys the city. I truly wish I was wrong, but a "moderate" government or even "moderate" policies would simply be viewed as racist or whatever phobic(s) people what to use for the shock value.
Again, I agree that Seattle is too big to fail, but at the same time, "I" feel that the city CANNOT survive if it stays on its current course.
I'll be honest, I hate to see my city of birth and where I grew up come to this. Is Seattle on the same track as Detroit? I don't think so, but can Seattle, in the near future, be like the lawless city of Detroit, if things don't change? Yes. Currently, we have the tech industry here, but what if they decide to move to the next happening spot in the country in the next 5-10 years?
I remember as a kid back in the mid 70s when Seattle was going through an economic hard time and everybody though that Seattle was done for it, but the city was able to ride out the hard times. This time it's different, the blue collar/law and order democrats are now long gone and have been replaced with the uber liberal democrats... Which have nothing in common with the old commonsense democrat party of the past.
I just hope that the people will wake up soon and realize how destructive ultra liberalism is to any society. The sad thing is that all the rich ultra liberals can pack up and leave the area within a few days. When that happens, it's the working class and the lower level, working class, who will be the ones stuck with the full bill of all the failed policies that the city has financed.
I mean, if you heavily censor like this place does (why is anybody's guess, this place has some pretty heavy handed censorship these days) or like Reddit, then no, it's not dying, because anyone who feels it is, isn't allowed to speak. I mean, if anyone who disagrees with me is a "troll" then I can censor anyone who disagrees with me. It's almost like they don't exist, and if they don't exist, their opinions don't either.
Can you imagine if moderators behaved that way in real life? Well, that IS pretty Seattle to pretend no one agrees with an alternative viewpoint by making it so you can't speak it...
Seattle isn't dying, it's dead. It's dead because anyone who tried to talk about the various reasons, from the homeless, to the social scene, to the changes in the various neighborhoods, was censored or told they were wrong by heavy-handed authoritarian philistines. Philistines still stuck in the past and patting themselves on that back. Maybe someone who lives in Ohio can comment on the dating scene and be taken serious because the philistines like the position so much that reality simply dissimulates. THAT is Seattle. That and lots of really gross trashy behavior.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
