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Old 10-22-2019, 12:02 PM
Status: "pray for democracy and freedom everlasting" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
4,889 posts, read 877,054 times
Reputation: 1653

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I have to vote yes, even though I am generally left of center. If you look at cost per passenger mile, Sound Transit is unbelievably bad. The numbers are ridiculous with light rail costing as much as 4 times that of a private vehicle and even more as compared with van pools. Light rail is generally at least 80% subsidized by the taxpayer.

When the ST light rail system is finished in 2035 or whatever, it will be utterly obsolete due to uber-pool-type services. ST will be a 50-year albatross around the taxpayer neck.
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Old 10-22-2019, 03:25 PM
 
Location: Seattle
7,157 posts, read 9,264,497 times
Reputation: 3989
Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
When the ST light rail system is finished in 2035 or whatever, it will be utterly obsolete due to uber-pool-type services. ST will be a 50-year albatross around the taxpayer neck.
Uber pool can never be cheaper than public transport. It's impossible.
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Old 10-22-2019, 03:41 PM
 
2,968 posts, read 8,262,572 times
Reputation: 1935
Quote:
Originally Posted by X.G. View Post
I'm with you. To clarify, most of this $ will go to expanding rail/subway/Link but I hear you! :-)

Désolée!
You're forgiven about misreading my post, the bus system really helped me get around when we had all that snow last winter, I don't want to see the transit bus systems cutting back on their buses along with raising their prices.
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Old 10-22-2019, 10:10 PM
 
Location: Independent Republic of Ballard
6,849 posts, read 5,323,504 times
Reputation: 4469
Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
I have to vote yes, even though I am generally left of center. If you look at cost per passenger mile, Sound Transit is unbelievably bad. The numbers are ridiculous with light rail costing as much as 4 times that of a private vehicle and even more as compared with van pools. Light rail is generally at least 80% subsidized by the taxpayer.

When the ST light rail system is finished in 2035 or whatever, it will be utterly obsolete due to uber-pool-type services. ST will be a 50-year albatross around the taxpayer neck.
We're building a subway system because we've reached the limit of what personal cars or buses can do. Only a rail subway (or elevated system) can efficiently and rapidly move masses of people through a dense urban core. The capital costs are large because tunnels and underground stations have high upfront costs, but can be used for a hundred years or more. Operational costs are lower, however. So far we have a trunk system that doesn't go where most people want to go, but once it is expanded in a few years to Northgate and Bellevue it will be much, much more useful.

Do you think freeways aren't heavily subsidized?
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Old 10-23-2019, 06:27 PM
Status: "pray for democracy and freedom everlasting" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
4,889 posts, read 877,054 times
Reputation: 1653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Botev1912 View Post
Uber pool can never be cheaper than public transport. It's impossible.
That's a strange claim. What is your proof?

Private vehicles are already cheaper than public transport, and Uber pool is clearly at least potentially cheaper than private vehicles. I don't have cost per passenger mile data on Uber pool. But common sense says that it will tend to be cheaper than a private owner-occupied vehicle.

www.city-data.com/forum/33124140-post87.html

Quote:
According to AAA the cost per vehicle mile in 2010 for a medium sedan driving 15,000 miles was 56.2. The average car has 1.5 people in it, so that translates to 37 cents per passenger mile. So:

vanpool: 20 cents per passenger mile
car: 37 cents per passenger mile
bus $1.70 ppm
train $5.39 ppm
Uber pool is basically a computerized version of the van pool.
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Old 10-23-2019, 06:34 PM
Status: "pray for democracy and freedom everlasting" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
4,889 posts, read 877,054 times
Reputation: 1653
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
...
Do you think freeways aren't heavily subsidized?
Yes I doubt that freeways are heavily subsidized. Car owners pay sales taxes, gas taxes, and tab taxes.

https://fee.org/articles/are-highways-subsidized/

Quote:
A U.S. Department of Transportation annual report called Highway Statistics reveals that in 2004 highway-user revenues totaled well over $100 billion. Nearly $21 billion of this was diverted to mass transit and other nonhighway programs but should still be counted as highway-user fees.
At the same time, nearly $39 billion was spent on highways out of property taxes and other taxes. Of the total amount spent on highways in 2004, then, net subsidies amounted to $39 billion minus $21 billion, or about $18 billion. This is about 12 percent of total spending on road construction, maintenance, and operations such as highway patrols. (See table HF-10 of Highway Statistics 2004.)
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Old 10-23-2019, 06:58 PM
 
Location: Independent Republic of Ballard
6,849 posts, read 5,323,504 times
Reputation: 4469
Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
Yes I doubt that freeways are heavily subsidized. Car owners pay sales taxes, gas taxes, and tab taxes.
You need to look beyond the first listing in Google:

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2013/01/...road-spending/

Quote:
There’s a persistent misconception in American culture that transit is a big drain on public coffers while roads conveniently and totally pay for themselves through the magic of gas taxes. And that used to be true — at least for interstate highways, a fraction of the total road network.

But that was many, many failed attempts to raise the gas tax ago. A new report from the Tax Foundation shows 50.7 percent of America’s road spending comes from gas taxes, tolls, and other fees levied on drivers. The other 49.3 percent? Well, that comes from general tax dollars, just like education and health care. The way we spend on roads has nothing to do with the free market, or even how much people use roads.

“Nationwide in 2010, state and local governments raised $37 billion in motor fuel taxes and $12 billion in tolls and non-fuel taxes, but spent $155 billion on highways,” writes the Tax Foundation’s Joseph Henchman. Another $28 billion of that $155 billion comes from revenue from the federal gas tax.

Meanwhile, transit fares cover 21 percent of costs nationwide, indicating that the difference in subsidies for roads and transit is not as great as it’s often made out to be. (Though in absolute terms, there is a big difference: The total subsidy for roads dwarfs the total subsidy for transit.)
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Old 10-23-2019, 07:08 PM
Status: "pray for democracy and freedom everlasting" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
4,889 posts, read 877,054 times
Reputation: 1653
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
You need to look beyond the first listing in Google:

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2013/01/...road-spending/
I didn't use google. Post fail in sentence #1.
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Old 10-23-2019, 07:51 PM
 
Location: Seattle
7,157 posts, read 9,264,497 times
Reputation: 3989
Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
That's a strange claim. What is your proof?

Private vehicles are already cheaper than public transport, and Uber pool is clearly at least potentially cheaper than private vehicles. I don't have cost per passenger mile data on Uber pool. But common sense says that it will tend to be cheaper than a private owner-occupied vehicle.

www.city-data.com/forum/33124140-post87.html



Uber pool is basically a computerized version of the van pool.
If you want to go from Tacoma to Seattle, Uber pool would be close to $50 while bus or train would still be $3.50-$5 because you pay per trip not per mile.
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Old 10-23-2019, 07:56 PM
 
Location: Independent Republic of Ballard
6,849 posts, read 5,323,504 times
Reputation: 4469
Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
I didn't use google. Post fail in sentence #1.
Google "highway subsidies" and the article you quoted comes up as #1. Your article, by the way, is from 2006 - the contribution of the federal gas tax (which has not been raised since 1993 and is not indexed to inflation) to highway spending has shrunk considerably since then. As the article I linked (from 2013) shows, there is more than just one way to look at the question.
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