Seattle Legal Market Part 2 (Starbuck: student loans, lawyer, find a job)

[bostex]

I know there was a thread about the Seattle legal market a few months ago...but that concerned lateral moves.

I'm a law student in Boston via Texas, graduating in December. I'm at a respectable, not uber prestigious school (here's looking at you Harvard), top half of my class...in short, just your average law student.

So based on my research thus far, I have a few questions that hopefully yall can help me out with.

-IP seems to be a big practice area, but I'm interested in corporate, securities, M&A, etc....is there a legit market in Seattle for those practice areas, or should I stick to the east coast?
-I've heard Seattle firms are very insular to those not from the area and it can be tough to get past that...thoughts?
-Big firms vs. boutiques vs. general counsel?

And finally any thoughts/information/advice yall can give on breaking into the legal market in the area will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks very much!

[allforcats]

Hi Bostex. I'm sure others will have more specific info for you, but in my business experience here:
-- Yes IP is a big practice area here, and so are corporate and M&A. Securities not so much.
-- There is some insularity here, in that contacts, networking, alumni networks, extended family networks, friends of friends, and friends of parents' friends are some serious influences on job-finding here. That having been said, "new blood" is definitely always welcomed when that person's background and skills fit a firm's needs.
-- Big firms for sure, and lots of them. Certainly, riffling through the yellow pages shows that all kinds of firms seem to thrive here; but in terms of salary, perks, opportunities and advancement here, my money would be on the big firms as very likely to get the business from the community, because of reputation and years of experience.

This fairly recent thread might contain bits of useful info for you:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/seatt...ob-market.html

[Jennibc]

How do I break this to you? You are unlikely to find a job here. In fact, I'll say you will not find a job here absent family connections. I graduated from the UW with Honors last year and have been unable to find an entry level job. I now have to pick my family up and leave the state so that I can practice law.

Two of my closest friends in law school were among the top five students in our class and they both had to move to California to find work. Another close friend of mine was in the top third of our class and holds a PhD in Biochemistry. She's working for Jones Day down in San Francisco but did not get a single offer here. Imagine that, hired as an associate at Jones Day but no one in Seattle would touch her.

There are about 190 new associate positions in the Seattle firms each year and with the UW and SU graduating close to 600 combined and all of the Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Penn, and Michigan grads that want to move here, very few people out of the UW find jobs in Seattle (and we are supposedly a top tier school - yah, top tiered and top grades didn't do a damn thing for me - do I sound bitter? I am!)

You will have to do what many of my classmates did, which is accept your first job is going to be in another market, get the experience and then try to come (back) here as a lateral. I know it's harsh, but everyone kept telling me I was going to have to relocate. I didn't want to do it because my husband has a job that he loves and we own a home, but the market is such that if I ever want to practice, I've gotta get the heck out of here.

Because I have just gone through the entire job searching process, please feel free to DM me for more information.

[MichaelinWA]

Microsoft currently has a number of advertised attorney positions, for those interested in a corporate job.

[Jennibc]

Originally Posted by MichaelinWA

Microsoft currently has a number of advertised attorney positions, for those interested in a corporate job.

They are NOT entry level jobs, they typically require at least three years working for a big firm. Microsoft came and spoke regularly at the UW law school when I was there, and just like Costco, Boeing, Starbucks, and every other PNW corporation, they will not hire people directly out of law school. They are not set up to train new lawyers, so they let the big firms incur training costs. Looking for a legal job is not like looking for any other kind of job. It is really a weird, weird process. I am not your average 26 year old law school grad (ie I've worked before) so I can tell you it is different than any other profession in terms of how one finds a job.

If law schools actually trained people to be lawyers rather than just to "think like lawyers" then maybe corporations would give fresh-outs a shot. They don't, so either you start work for a big firm, a mid size firm, a government agency, as a law clerk (for a judge) or public defender association or risk malpractice going out solo. The truth is, you gotta find someone that will train you, and corporations won't do it. Occasionally, one can find a really small firm willing to take you on but those jobs are rare.

[supertexan]

If you have not already seen this, it may prove a beneficial resource. It is an abstract about the Seattle Legal Market from a lawyer recruiting firm.
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/care...tle_market.pdf
Good luck and don't let anyone tell you there are no jobs out there. There are jobs. You just may not get your dream legal job right out of law school. Your best bet is just to find a job - then lateral over to your dream job once you make contacts in the area.

[Jennibc]

Originally Posted by supertexan

If you have not already seen this, it may prove a beneficial resource. It is an abstract about the Seattle Legal Market from a lawyer recruiting firm.
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/care...tle_market.pdf
Good luck and don't let anyone tell you there are no jobs out there. There are jobs. You just may not get your dream legal job right out of law school. Your best bet is just to find a job - then lateral over to your dream job once you make contacts in the area.

You know, usually I hate to pull any kind of "I know better than you do" on these forums because we don't know anything about the other posters, but it is clear you really have no idea what you are talking about. First, the data of this report is from 2004. The market changes every year. Fortunately, the original poster is law school, so she or he is already aware of that. More importantly, the poster is looking for an entry level legal job.

I graduated from the the UW in 2007 so I am painfully aware of the availability of those jobs. They are very difficult to come by in this region. I am not inflating number when I say nearly half my class didn't find a job in this legal market. Again, some of the top, and by top 5%, had to move to California or New York (usually very competitive markets) to take entry level jobs. There were about 190 entry level jobs to be filled in the Seattle market for the year 2007. There were over 500 law school graduates from the the two law schools in the city with many more wanting to relocate from the Ivy's and Ivy-like schools.

Since law schools don't train people to be lawyers, but merely to think like lawyers, a newbie is expected to take upwards of a year to learn the trade when he or she gets out. That's why big corporations don't touch fresh outs. Typically big firms take them on because they can afford to make very little money off of their efforts during that first, steep learning curve of a year. Small firms are reluctant to hire for the same reason.

There is a massive debate raging right now in academia regarding how future lawyers are taught. The current model basically screws many law students in that we end up coming out not quite competent to practice law and if we cannot find an experienced lawyer to take us under his or her wing and train us, we never get to practice. Again, the OP is probably familiar with this.

If anyone wants to move here with the hopes of finding a legal job, they are welcome to; have at it. If he or she finds one, good for them. But posting Major Hagen, and Africa 2004 marketing materials is just ridiculous. There is nothing in there regarding placement statistics or numbers of jobs available a year. And each year such availability can swing dramatically depending on what the local economy is doing.

I also notice that the link is from Northwestern Law school which is a very different school than the one the OP is coming from. Law firms here really like names and Northwestern is certainly Ivy-like enough to open some doors. That's far different than say graduating from Boston College or wherever it is the OP currently attends and being in the middle of his or her class is going to make it nearly impossible to find an entry level job in a market this tight.

[supertexan]

To the OP. Just because jennibc was rejected by every employer to whom she sent a resume, does not meant you will be, as well. Don't be discouraged by those who only have negative things to say. Keep a look out for job postings on the Washington State Bar web page (some entry level postings can be found there for June) and the King County Bar website. Also, give contract work a shot to get your foot in the door.

[Jennibc]

Are you in Seattle working as a lawyer? I perform contract work right now in Seattle AS A LAWYER. (well, not right this minute, I am supposed to be packing as we are moving but perusing this website is just so much more interesting)

It's not a question of rejection, it is a question of openings. As I said, in an earlier post, our career services office told my class and will tell every class at the UW, that law students must consider looking outside the area because of limited openings here. Feel free to call the UW career services office and find out about Seattle area placement for graduates of what is considered the best law school in the state of Washington.

Look, I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else on this board. The only reason I am pushing this is because it would be tragic for the OP or any other third year law student, to spend money to move here, incur the cost of sitting for the Washington State bar and then have to move somewhere else and sit for another state's bar because there is nothing available. Law school is not cheap, the student loans can be stifling, and for someone to move here because some yahoo, who clearly is not part of this local legal market, thinks if your attitude is good enough and you just hope and pray hard enough you will find something and it will all work out, would be complete folly.

As I mentioned in my earlier posts, some of our top students (editors on law review, winning moot court, 3.9 GPAs) did not get jobs here. I don't think it was any kind of personal failing on their parts. They were truly great folks, and are currently working for top law firms in larger cities. In fact, we don't have firms here that even are in the same ballpark as where they are working. It is a question of the market and the market is such that it cannot absorb all of the newly minted lawyers that want to live in Seattle.

I am sorry, but that's just how it is. Like I said, come out here, give it a shot, but don't say you weren't warned.

Originally Posted by supertexan

To the OP. Just because jennibc was rejected by every employer to whom she sent a resume, does not meant you will be, as well. Don't be discouraged by those who only have negative things to say. Keep a look out for job postings on the Washington State Bar web page (some entry level postings can be found there for June) and the King County Bar website. Also, give contract work a shot to get your foot in the door.

[bostex]

Jenn,

What type of firms are you looking at? I'm sure the big firms are insanely hard to get into right out of law school...but it seems like there are a TON of midsize firms and boutiques all over the city.

I'm being a realistic and know I'm likely NOT going to get a job at one of the big dogs like DWT, Perkins, Wilson Goodrich, etc. but I was/am seriously targeting some of the smaller firms. I'm even willing to go the contract attorney route as long as I can live off the pay and it gets my foot in the door. I'll be visiting in mid-September for a job fair and hopefully setting up some interviews ahead of time.

That being said, your post has sufficiently freaked me out, and now doubts are now running rampant...