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Possible relocation from Portland Oregon to Seattle, better economy and wages, temperature and rainfall differences, music and arts variety, rental market, corporate real estate speculators
So I moved from Atlanta to Portland, Oregon a year ago back in December 06. I was/am trying to open music studio in PDX. I have been renting a loft in SE Downtown for a year and the building got sold. Long story short, I am really getting raked over on my lease and all the expense I put into the loft for my studio of which I am now not going to recoup through work.
Upon reflection, I started wondering why I moved here. I don't really care for a lot of the people around here. I met a few good people, but it seems like most of the mass populace has this idea of not claiming any responsibility for their actions. There is a total lack of personal responsibility here. Say one thing and do another is the motto. The Government is tax happy. The real estate speculators have pretty much ruined any chance of finding rough lofts to work out of for a decent price. Most places here are running about twice the price of downtown Chicago and want financials out the ying yang like your bringing them on as an investment partner or board director. The wages here are low and it seems like everyone you talk to, they are just getting by or have zilch for money. Not very reassuring when starting up work. Music scene isn't all that great either. Not a ton of variety. Lot's of hipsters who think they are so cool and have never even been outside of the northwest. Haven't even really been around, if you know what I mean. Either that, or trust fund babies.
I told myself I moved here for the land and not the people. Wanted to be closer to my food supply and be able to enjoy the outdoors easily. Portland is easy to walk around, when your not dodging some idiot driving while talking on their cellphone. And there are good local farms here if you have the time to hook up with buying from them as direct as possible. But the rivers are more polluted than were realized. Especially with decades of industrial dumping in the Columbia and the old Manhattan Project a little ways north.
So, as I am leaving my loft I wasted a ton of money on, I'm contemplating blowing this city off and just going to Seattle. Questions:
- How much more rain and cloud cover does Seattle get than PDX? I know it's not in a valley like Portland and doesn't have the advantages of mountains blocking sea weather. How much different on temperature as well?
- How much better is the economy and wages there? I know, lots more people from a lotta different places. Film industry in BC. Lots of good music and art with variety. Are people spending money on anything? Is there a sense of vibrance, or are a lot of people expecting the local economy to tank hard soon?
-How manipulated is the rental market by outside big corporate real estate speculators? Do you see a lot of "no cause" evictions out there? A lot of kicking out local businesses out of buildings to turn them into condos and offices at triple the rent? Basically, pricing out the locals, sending them to the burbs.
-Traffic. I know it bites. I came from Atlanta which is even worse. Do you get the breaks after 10 am. And after 7pm-8pm? So at least you have some windows of mobility? Hows that train/trolley system coming along? Easy to get from Seattle down to Cannon Beach or Seaside?
-Are the cops as bad there? Just as much vandalism and theft? Know some good meth neighborhoods? List them so I can avoid them. Same goes for overly drunk neighborhoods too.
Feel free to list the negatives of Seattle. I already have problems with the greys, so don't harp on those issues. And I guess the big question is:
Seattle's economy is way better. Wages are better. That sense of vibrance you are looking for might not be anywhere on the west coast (or most larger cities in the US) right now...
Finding an affordable loft will be near impossible.
Traffic is worse.
Food is very good, except for Mexican (just ok). No problems getting good fresh produce.
Property crime is worse than Portland. I've never had an issue with police though.
Lots and lots of trust fund babies.
To me the music scene in Portland is better than Seattle, and I go to shows in Portland more than Seattle if that's any indication.
Most of these issues have been covered pretty extensively on here, I'd suggest searching the forum more just to get a better idea.
Weather is pretty similar. Portland gets more heat in the summer and generally more cold in the winter due to being near the Columbia Gorge. It's equally cloudy in the winter. The lack of mountains has less to do with it than the fact that Seattle sits on Puget Sound, which moderates temperatures quite a bit. Note that in yesterday's snow episode, the areas near the water just got a dusting, while 15 miles to the East, they had all kinds of snow/freezing troubles.
Rainfall totals are similar, with Portland receiving slightly less on average - but not enough to really notice.
The climate is basically the same, with some micro-climate differences.
Traffic sucks in pretty much any desirable city, though Portland has a far superior mass transit system.
The economy in Seattle is generally better, with more corporate HQ calling Seattle home and more diversification.
Housing is even less affordable than Portland, though property taxes aren't quite as onerous as Oregon.
The previous posts sum up the differences between Portland and Seattle nicely.
As for the music scene, there have been numerous articles in the Seattle weekly papers over the past few years that have noted an exodus of Seattle musicians for Portland. The notion seems to be that once a city reaches a certain cost of living level (San Francisco, Seattle, New York) bands that haven't hit it big yet head for cheaper cities (Portland, Austin) with a density of young creative types. Everything I've read pegs the Portland music scene (as in locals actually making music) as stronger than Seattle at this point, a change from earlier years especially the heyday of grunge.
You may very well find valid reasons for making a move to Seattle TK and certainly for people in some fields, Seattle is the winner with a more promising job market. But Seattle and Portland are more alike than they are different and I'd really give thought to exactly what you hope to find in Seattle that you're not finding in Portland.
I have heard that a lot, so to speak. Of the flight from the Bay Area and Seattle to PDX. Which is why all the national real estate speculators drove up all the prices here a long time ago, combined with the corrupt urban growth boundary. The problem is, wages don't reflect the cost of living. In most of the big cities, you pay more, but you also make more. Not the case here. All the locals either cashed out or got pushed out to the burbs awhile ago. It's amazing to hear people rip on Gresham who are not from Portland or have only been here a short time. I was talking with a video guy the other day, and he was talking about the decline in corporate shoots he has been doing. It seems all the local people also like relying on sort of a "favor system" instead of actual cash a lot. My main concern is with businesses wanting to move because of taxes and also the over all level of wages in Portland. Not much high tech here besides the OHSU and Intel ( which is cutting jobs I think). A lot of service based jobs and government jobs. I know the whole US economy is heading into a tail spin straight into the toilet. It's just so hard to actually know a place and have a good opinion until you've lived there awhile. Maybe I should just get a cheap space in the middle of nowhere near the coast, spend it writing, then go tour. This is probably one of the worst times to be doing any kind of start up business. War, fraud, stagflation, corruption, socialism and greed on every doorstep.
I have heard that a lot, so to speak. Of the flight from the Bay Area and Seattle to PDX. Which is why all the national real estate speculators drove up all the prices here a long time ago, combined with the corrupt urban growth boundary. The problem is, wages don't reflect the cost of living. In most of the big cities, you pay more, but you also make more. Not the case here. All the locals either cashed out or got pushed out to the burbs awhile ago. It's amazing to hear people rip on Gresham who are not from Portland or have only been here a short time. I was talking with a video guy the other day, and he was talking about the decline in corporate shoots he has been doing. It seems all the local people also like relying on sort of a "favor system" instead of actual cash a lot. My main concern is with businesses wanting to move because of taxes and also the over all level of wages in Portland. Not much high tech here besides the OHSU and Intel ( which is cutting jobs I think). A lot of service based jobs and government jobs. I know the whole US economy is heading into a tail spin straight into the toilet. It's just so hard to actually know a place and have a good opinion until you've lived there awhile. Maybe I should just get a cheap space in the middle of nowhere near the coast, spend it writing, then go tour. This is probably one of the worst times to be doing any kind of start up business. War, fraud, stagflation, corruption, socialism and greed on every doorstep.
Argo69 touched on the main concern: Seattle has a better economy but a MUCH HIGHER cost of living, and that spills over into the cost of studios. Right now, dare I say it, but Seattle is not a music-friendly place. The mayor is cracking down on a lot of clubs up here. The vibrancy that brought Seattle fame in the early '90's is being snuffed out by overpriced condos and a government that is selling the city out to the highest bidder.
Of my musician and artist friends, most are trying to move TO Portland, not from it! There are some that are moving to the country, but most are packing up and heading south.
As for your predicament, have you thought of just getting a cheap place in the suburbs of Portland? You can still have your music and be nearby P-town.
Seattle is a great place, don't get me wrong. But right now, it is not musician friendly. And believe me, the musicians know it!
That's the kind of things I need to hear. Sounds a lot like what has happened time and again in NY. as well as what happened to Atlanta after the Olympics. I have thought of the burbs. The problem is people are so lazy to travel anywhere if you don't have a name established for yourself. I know a lot of people on the inner east side that ***** about going over to the west side to do anything. We are talking with no traffic and about a half mile or less travel after business hours.
I was wanting to get into more audio for video projects and scoring as well. Which there is a lot of in BC. So I thought Seattle would be a better choice for that. But if Seattle is following the same ways as Atlanta, which by your description and what other people have said about the somewhat "class" struggles going on, it probably would be better to tuff it out here. Or put things in storage and just worry about doing little projects and building a name for myself. It's frustrating. I got tons of gear, all paid for, and people who want to contribute, but no place to do it. Seems rather odd and paradoxical.
I have heard that a lot, so to speak. Of the flight from the Bay Area and Seattle to PDX. Which is why all the national real estate speculators drove up all the prices here a long time ago, combined with the corrupt urban growth boundary. The problem is, wages don't reflect the cost of living. In most of the big cities, you pay more, but you also make more. Not the case here. All the locals either cashed out or got pushed out to the burbs awhile ago.
I understand your sentiments but one should keep in mind that this is happening all over and is not a phenomenon unique to Portland. Granted, the urban growth boundary probably does help exacerbate the housing situation in your area but I don't believe that Seattle is any more affordable based on median incomes. There are newspaper stories all the time about how teachers, firemen, nurses, etc. can't afford to buy a place in Seattle anymore because of the inflated prices.
You mention many issues you have with Portland in your original post but most of the same issues are lobbed at Seattle all the time too. That's one reason why I question whether a move like this would really be an improvement for you.
I was wanting to get into more audio for video projects and scoring as well. Which there is a lot of in BC. So I thought Seattle would be a better choice for that.
That's an interesting thought and if you were able to secure work up there it could certainly change the equation. There is indeed tons of film and video shot up in Vancouver BC but I have a degree in film and have never worked on any project up there. It's four hours away (by Amtrak) and I believe there are some legal issues around hiring Americans (when there are qualified Canadians) for work there. My impression is that there is 1)a huge infrastructure of Canadian media people in Vancouver and 2)crews from American productions that are hired in NYC or LA and then travel up there for a month or two to shoot something (gotta love the tax benefits) and then return to the U.S.. Post-production (scoring, editing, etc.) is generally done by Canadians at facilities in Vancouver or the footage is all sent back to one of the major U.S. media centers (Los Angeles or New York) and finished there. So, while it seems weird, given my understanding of the work situation you are actually more likely to get media work in Vancouver BC if you live in Los Angeles or New York than in Seattle!
I think you'll find that the general consensus on this board will be that as difficult as things may seem to you (and things are tough for a lot of people right now that's for sure), you are all things considered in a pretty good place for your particular field. Best of luck to you TK...
Last edited by argo69; 01-29-2008 at 11:46 PM..
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