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Old 10-28-2009, 05:26 PM
 
474 posts, read 1,220,991 times
Reputation: 139

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Well, looks like they may be moving to S. Carolina. We are estimating 200,000 jobs, not just Boeing but Boeing-dependent businesses as well. Population of Seattle just hit 600,000. It's not going to happen overnight but what do people think will happen in the next 5-10 yrs.

Last edited by Redline; 10-28-2009 at 05:44 PM..
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Old 10-28-2009, 06:31 PM
 
Location: Seattle
808 posts, read 1,391,664 times
Reputation: 446
Reaganomics, baby.

The businesses start and grow where the workforce is best and most educated. Then the company exploits desperate tax breaks and concessions when they threaten to leave. Then said company moves to where the labor is cheaper, non-unionized and dumber anyways. Then the company goes overseas.

As long as we keep growing startups here, we'l be fine. But Boeing is a huge company...
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Old 10-28-2009, 06:55 PM
 
Location: West Coast Wanderer
12,922 posts, read 11,114,246 times
Reputation: 6207
Quote:
Originally Posted by JesseJB View Post
Reaganomics, baby.

The businesses start and grow where the workforce is best and most educated. Then the company exploits desperate tax breaks and concessions when they threaten to leave. Then said company moves to where the labor is cheaper, non-unionized and dumber anyways. Then the company goes overseas.

As long as we keep growing startups here, we'l be fine. But Boeing is a huge company...
Yep. Very well said. A similar thing sort of happened to Bank Of America. It was purchased though, then it's headquarters was moved from San Francisco to I believe South Carolina as well.

Boeing is like a fixture of Seattle. Can't believe they're leaving.
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Old 10-28-2009, 07:24 PM
 
343 posts, read 755,623 times
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I think they're going to regret placing this line in South Carolina. And Boeing isn't leaving. Jobs aren't moving from the Puget Sound to South Carolina. These are just 3,800 jobs that we're not going to get. But it sets an alarming precedent, the Boeing could very easily start placing more jobs elsewhere. But, you know, I don't think it's a bad thing, because this will force our local economy to diversify. I don't think it's a good to have "all your eggs in one basket".

But, in the end, I think we'll be fine. Plenty of other companies are moving here (Spring Wireless USA, Ambassadors International, Mike's Hard Lemonade, Motricity, Oncothyreon, Coastal Hotels Group, Hydra Developments, Entellium, Gastronaut Studios) and others are having IPOs (Omeros, Symetra Financial, Infrastrux Group), while other private companies are starting up and locating here (MTR Western, Seattle Sounders, Evri, J&D's Down Home Enterprises)
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Old 10-28-2009, 07:30 PM
 
Location: Greater Seattle, WA Metro Area
1,938 posts, read 3,911,602 times
Reputation: 860
Boeing isn't leaving...not yet anyway. It said that the 3800 jobs going to SC will have an impact of 3x that on the WA economy which is 11,400. So the sky is not falling in Seattle.
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Old 10-28-2009, 07:40 PM
 
132 posts, read 224,906 times
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This is how it starts as airplane making becomes increasingly commoditized.

What will likely happen is that all the Boeing lines will gradually be closed as they revamp the product line and move manufacturing to the South or countries like China, i.e. 737, 767, 747, 777, then 787. This process will take at least 10 - 20 years.

I think Seattle will be able to take the hit, but it involves a lot of painful transitioning / repositioning.
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Old 10-28-2009, 08:42 PM
 
44 posts, read 104,368 times
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Meh. Manufacturing in general has been leaving the US for decades. Also, I doubt they'll be vacating Seattle entirely. When the Big 3 automakers started shifting production elsewhere, they still kept engineering (except for factory-floor-dwelling manufacturing engineers) in Michigan. I'm guessing we'll see the same thing happen with Boeing and Washington.
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Old 10-28-2009, 08:47 PM
 
Location: US Empire, Pac NW
5,012 posts, read 6,526,083 times
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As a Boeing engineer, I have to say that it isn't surprising. Here's the cold, hard facts:

1) The average hourly wage of a hair stylist in the Puget Sound region is around $15/hr

2) The average hourly wage of a machinist working the 787 line: $30/hr

3) The average hourly wage of a mechanic working the 787 line in S.C. (based on a slight bump in wage from an auto mechanic working an auto line): $16/hr

4) Gregoire's response to the special "council" she founded to make WA state more competitive for businesses: shut them down after they said they needed to give out nearly $2 billion in tax incentives to stay. Then basically say "oh we're competitive" ... hoping Boeing will drink the Kool-aid. Compare that to a three-state tax incentive which is not only desperate (because the jobs situation there is much worse than here), but makes sense from a long term perspective. In case you were wondering, Boeing IS looking at the next generation of new airplanes to replace the 737 and a hyper-efficient 777 ... and they are looking to make new megasites for that, rather than the fragmented approach of the 787. Oh they'll still have the same partner-supplier model, but they'll basically force a relocation closer to the final assembly plant so Boeing can bring its eggs closer to home.

5) Gregoire's and the union's insistance that no one can build planes like we can here is baloney. 30 years ago, nobody thought that the South could make quality cars. Now that's where most (foreign) automakers go to make their cars, in the USA.

You got it right: the average cost of a hair stylist is just below that of what a machinist will make in S.C. How in the world can the P.S. region compete with that? It can't. The cost of living is just wayyyyyyyyyyy too high to do that. With Microsoft engineers getting paid high 70k starting, Boeing engineers making high 50s starting, numerous health professionals making similar wages, and the damaged yet still strong financial industry making (actually I don't know, but if Wall St. is any indication, methinks wages haven't been hit much) ... I really don't think Boeing was willing to submit to just how crazy it's gotten here. If I was a business I wouldn't want to resort to ridiculous wages to attract good talent. If you want the P.S. region to compete with that, you're basically gonna have to scare away Microsoft, all the high-tech companies, all the medical companies, and all the engineering services companies. But hey with Gregoire in charge, that may just happen.

I can sympathize. I can get a two story house that's around 2500 sq. ft with two car garage and basement easy for $250k there. Here that will ... get you a shack. On Rainier Valley. Next to the dope house or a "new age renovated, cutting edge" condo next to the halfway house near Pioneer Square. It's pathetic.

So in short ... anyone who believes that Southerners are incapable of making quality products is totally oblivious to the auto, industrial, weapons, and networking capabilities that companies down South make. It ain't just butter rolls and warm smiles and cowboys anymore, a hyuck hyuck. And many of them are quite happy without unions, thank you very much. Cost of living way cheaper. Willingness of the states to get the business: check. Looks better than shipping it overseas: check.
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Old 10-28-2009, 09:42 PM
 
121 posts, read 223,528 times
Reputation: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by eskercurve View Post

4) Gregoire's response to the special "council" she founded to make WA state more competitive for businesses: shut them down after they said they needed to give out nearly $2 billion in tax incentives to stay. Then basically say "oh we're competitive" ... hoping Boeing will drink the Kool-aid. Compare that to a three-state tax incentive which is not only desperate (because the jobs situation there is much worse than here), but makes sense from a long term perspective. . .

5) Gregoire's and the union's insistance that no one can build planes like we can here is baloney. 30 years ago, nobody thought that the South could make quality cars. Now that's where most (foreign) automakers go to make their cars, in the USA.

You got it right: the average cost of a hair stylist is just below that of what a machinist will make in S.C. How in the world can the P.S. region compete with that? It can't.
Just a few points. The State of Washington gave Boeing a $3 billion tax break in 2003 to build the 787 here, and this state is hardly among the worst when it comes to taxes. I read Boeing's statement regarding the siting of the second line, and nowhere was there mention of taxes. Additionally, the monetary incentives offered by South Carolina would be illegal for this state to offer--our state constitution prohibits direct financial contributions to private businesses.

Second, Gregoire doesn't control the unions. It's not her job to dictate to the unions that they do anything. Her cheerleading for Washington state workers is hardly unique--it's standard fair for politicians. I would expect every politician to say that their constituents are the best qualified, best trained workers, etc.

With regard to the cost of living, that's really the main point. Boeing is opening the line SC because it is low cost and low wage. Notice that manufacturing of all sorts is relocating to the Southeast. Puget Sound isn't losing Boeing jobs to the Bay Area, Boston, or New York, it's losing it to a place that Puget Sound has no hope of competing with on either labor costs or cost of living, no matter how much more in tax breaks were given.

Finally, about SC's cost of living, realize that it exist for one and only one reason: very low gas costs. Workers can buy a house and a truck on $16 an hour only because gas costs hover around $2 a gallon. If one area becomes too high demand, there's always an area just beyond the fringe that can be developed, and low labor costs to build the roads to get there. What would happen if gas were to increase to $5 or $6 a gallon? I'm not saying it's going to happen, but it's a risk, as we saw a few years ago when gas prices briefly rose to $100 a barrel. If for some reason we had a new oil shock, much of SC's low cost advantages would disappear overnight and you would see the low gas prayer rallies crop up again.
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Old 10-28-2009, 10:25 PM
 
132 posts, read 224,906 times
Reputation: 51
This is IAM's first sentence in their statement - I am not even joking.

"Boeing has betrayed our loyalty once again, walking away from our discussions just like they walked away from Seattle eight years ago to move to Chicago."

If I am Boeing CEO, I would be very happy to leave the State and not dealing with Union maniacs like this.
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