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Old 09-06-2010, 05:14 AM
 
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Why is diesel a problem in Alaska?

Nearly everything here in Minnesota is diesel on farms and we have many nights below -30
Nearly every store sells anti-gel in quarts and gallom sizes.

A few oz per gallon and the problem is solved.

The real problem with diesels isn't the fuel in winter, but needing them plugged in to get started.

We had a week when the temp never got above zero in daytime and down in the -30's at night.

My son used his IH 1586 tractor with loader every day.
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Old 09-06-2010, 09:21 AM
 
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More than once I built a camp fire right under a diesel engine. I agree the fuel was some what jelled, but the cold was the compression killer. Probably I should mention on skidders mainly, and ones that broke down for some other reason in the woods, and left there in NH winter.
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Old 09-06-2010, 01:41 PM
 
Location: Interior AK
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According to Williams Petroleum, a major fuel supplier in Alaska, #2 Diesel has a cloud point of +40F and a pour point of +10F; #1 Diesel has a cloud point of -60F and a pour point of -68F. But you cannot run #1 diesel straight for extended periods without damaging your vehicle (not to mention major mpg losses). Thier winter diesel blend, which contains the maximum "safe' amount of #1DF has a cloud point of -12F and a pour point of -20F. Most fuel additives tested at their facilties only lowered the cloud and pour points of thier winter blend by 15 degrees. So we're looking at a pour point of -35F... which is well above the sustained daily temperatures in a large portion of the Alaskan Interior for several weeks/months in winter.

One particular problem in Alaska is that many gas stations not located in/around one of the three cities in the state do not regularly cycle between summer and winter blends. The tanks in remote areas get filled when they need filling regardless of the blend that's being sold at the time, and it all gets poured in and mixed with whatever is still remaining in the tanks... so your likelihood of getting a blend that approaches -35F pour point with additives is extremely low.

Couple that with other cold weather problems, like compression and flat/frozen batteries, and you have a dead vehicle or generator. Even extreme winterization kits are only effective if you can keep the engine and fuel warm by leaving it plugged in, parking in a heated garage, or leaving the engine running... none of those options are cost effective or practical for the average person outside a city. At extreme low temps, this becomes a problem when with gasoline engines which are typically more cold-climate friendly than diesels... but you have several starting options with gasoline that are not available with many diesel engines, push starts, pull starts, 2-stroke vs. 4-stroke, etc.

Now, the OP might not have as much of a problem with diesel because the sustained winter temps in Anchorage are quite mild in comparison to the Interior (much closer to a hard winter in Minnesota or the Dakotas), likely has better access to proper seasonal blends, is likely on grid power and plugs are available at most public buildings. However, winterizing your diesel gen-set does you little good if it is cold and the power is out... precisely the time when you need to get that sucker started.

I keep stressing sustained because, while it may get down to -30F or below for a few days or at night in some of the northern states in the Lower 48, it doesn't get down to -30F or below for a month or more continuously. Last winter, we had 6 solid weeks where the temps didn't get above -30F, two of which didn't get above -50... we got a warming spell where it was between -15 and -20 during the day, and then it dropped below -30 for another 2 weeks. I think you can agree that this is not the same as an upper midwest winter, no? There's a huge difference between 45N latitude and 65N latitude.
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Old 09-06-2010, 02:16 PM
 
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Gelled diesel is a really bad problem in sustained cold. I have two diesel trucks and a car and when its cold enough to gel the fuel, you can't really solve it until it warms up. The area over which the vehicle needs to be heated is too big to warm it up safely (tank, all along fuel lines, engine bottom to top). So, its dead until the weather warms up or it sits inside for a day. (unless you're Mac and you don't care if you create a firebomb in the back yard).

My MB 300SDL manual says to mix up to 25% gasoline in the diesel and that seems to solve it here, but I would not want to venture what it would take at 65N latitude.
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Old 09-06-2010, 02:41 PM
 
Location: Interior AK
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Blending fuels and additives and such can be a real PITA in a survival situation. Not only is it a PITA, but it increases the amount of stuff you need to stock up on and keep properly stored and protected. I'd hate to be in a SHTF scenario with only 2 of the 3 things I needed, or miscalculating the percentages required so I ended up not having enough X for the whole quantity... talk about a total bummer!

If you need to add gas (or kerosene) to your diesel to get it to run 6 months out of the year (yes, our winters below freezing are that long)... makes more sense to just get gas in the first place, no?

There have been times when we needed to light a charcoal chimney under the truck, or use a weed burner to thaw her out... and gas is much more flammable than diesel, for sure... but not nearly as many times as we would have if we'd had a diesel engine.

In a generator situation, you wouldn't have to keep your power shed nearly as warm with a gas gen as you would with a diesel gen. A small fire in a charcoal chimney in an insulated shed for an hour or two would do the trick for a gas gen (as long as it was a pull start!) at -50F. I can't even imagine how long it would take to warm up a diesel gen shed... or if it would even help in the end if your battery was froze up. One of our neighbors has a big diesel gen-set power station that he normally runs continuously all winter... but he still has a small portable gas generator to plug into it so he can get it started again just in case it ever stops!

I like diesel engines. They are generally more reliable and easier to work on than gas. Less temperamental in most case, too. Under normal circumstances, I have no reservatiosn advocating diesel engines to anyone. They just really don't like it up here
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Old 09-06-2010, 02:58 PM
 
Location: Itinerant
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Going back to the OP for a moment, and taking it away from diesel vs. gasoline in cold climates.

Think very carefully about your ammunition, I hate to say this (says he with a decent gun collection and more than a few thousand rounds), but many people get stuck in the "there's no such thing as too much ammo" railroad. That's just not true, ammunition is heavy and while a round is quite cheap large quantities are expensive, and you just don't normally use a lot. In the year I've been living in AK I've used about 8 hunting rounds all told. If TSHTF and you're looking for ammo for self defense, the outcome will likely be the same if you have 1000 rounds or 100,000 rounds. Many people who are preppers or survivalists always say "ammo" so those people who want to trade are likely to have the major calibers in quantity (sad I know predicting a post SHTF economy). So it might not be the universal currency, its certainly something to think about if you need to compromise on something.
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Old 09-06-2010, 03:42 PM
 
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Gungnir, I read that post 6 times and can't quite figure what it is you are sayin'.

In SHTF ammo will be a currency whether or not the right gun is even around. Lots of things will be, and not many will be green paper or light weight.

What the currency of that day will be is a fishing trip. Come back with too much mackerel fish, when everyone has all they want then it's worthless. Come back with when no has any and it has value. but you know that already.

Wilson, me and my fires under a skidder happen because things like universal joints break, and that skidder sat out all night in dead winter. It takes time to be made aware, then more time to gather up torches and tools go pack them into the woods, to cut out that dead U joint, then heat tools so you can use them, and I can't work wearing gloves fer beans. It takes longer in the woods to fix that stuff, laying in frozen mud well below 0.

You can't risk wearing a battery down out there either, and my torches are not big enough to heat any engines that size by a long shot. The will cut a U joint out ok, but warming a big engine ain't gonna happen.

I have had fires under gasoline burning trucks too, that gets exciting, but i never lost or even harmed one yet.

I don't like that kinda work much, but I get paid pretty good for it, and it has gotta be cheaper than getting another skidder more trucks and trailers, to get a broken one out of the woods just to pay to get it fixed and right back where it was. And then my days for doing that are very numbered anymore.
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Old 09-06-2010, 04:14 PM
 
Location: Itinerant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac_Muz View Post
Gungnir, I read that post 6 times and can't quite figure what it is you are sayin'.

In SHTF ammo will be a currency whether or not the right gun is even around. Lots of things will be, and not many will be green paper or light weight.

What the currency of that day will be is a fishing trip. Come back with too much mackerel fish, when everyone has all they want then it's worthless. Come back with when no has any and it has value. but you know that already.
What I'm saying is...

Don't go overboard on ammunition thinking that it will be a universal currency if TSHTF. Which is a common belief in a lot of preparation "manuals", however as many people who are prepared have read these manuals, then the immediate value of ammunition if TSHTF may be a lot lower than people think.

Food, water, fuel are much more consumable in general and therefore much more likely to be immediately needed.

People can get hung up on ammunition at the expense of other things they need for preparation. So much so at times that they'll buy another 5k rounds of ammo over another 6 months of food, unless you're plinking or a bloody awful shot you're not using 5k rounds of ammo in 6 months.

As I said I used 8 hunting rounds this past year for 8 successful hunting trips I do go through 100 rounds a month keeping my eye in, but that can be curtailed if ammo supplies dry up and it might double my hunting round use. If someone wanted to trade ammo with me, then chances are what they're able to offer is not something that I'd likely accept, 2, or 20, or 200 30-06 cartridges isn't going to get them a pair of moosehide muk's (the value they're offering to me is just too low), but 5 gallons of gas, would.

Just sayin' its something to consider when thinking about what you need in your prep plan.
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Old 09-06-2010, 04:15 PM
 
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My advice was for the OP.

Missing lives out in the middle of nowhere, but the OP does not.
I would venture only a small percentage of Alaskans live----in the middle of nowhere.

Many times in winter, the temps in Anchorage ( where the OP lives) are warmer than in central Minnesota where I live.
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Old 09-06-2010, 04:31 PM
 
Location: Interior AK
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Over half of the population in Alaska live outside the municipal areas of Anchorage, Fairbanks and Juneau -- half is not a small percentage. One needn't live "in the middle of nowhere" in AK to be outside a municipal area with all it's modern amenities. By Alaska standards, I don't even live in the middle of nowhere, I at least have a road accessible within a few miles (even if it is only a gravel "highway").

But, you're right, the OP currently lives in Anchorage which is more temperate (as is Juneau)... however, if he needs to relocate or travel anywhere north of his current location when SHTF, it pays to be prepared for it. The Anchorage metro is a tiny island in a very vast ocean that is the rest of the state... and it's got the highest population, so restricted resources will be much harder to obtain and more likely to be fought over. I lived in Anchorage before... when the supply barges were delayed the supermarkets emptied in a matter of minutes.
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