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Old 12-08-2010, 11:59 AM
 
Location: 96820
795 posts, read 2,076,486 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiroptera View Post
What kind of firearm do I need?.
The Home Defense Shotgun | Personal Defense

20 gage Ithaca Model 37 Defense
The Ithaca Model 37 Defense



.40 caliber GLOCK "SAFE ACTION" PISTOL


Don't "over gun" your self - these shooters will do the job.
Better to move out of that area. Out side killers are not going to hear any "racking" of any firearm.
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Old 12-08-2010, 12:45 PM
 
Location: FROM Dixie, but IN SoCal
3,491 posts, read 5,493,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by animus_divinus View Post
one thing i should explain, you can have the most powerful cartridge in the world and it means nothing if you cant hit the target...
Here are three of my favorite quotes. The first two come from Massad Ayoob's books, and the third from Col. Jeff Cooper:

"I'd rather be missed with a .45 than hit with a .22."

"Shootin' straight with a .38 beats givin' jive with a .45!"


"The gunfight isn't won by the first shot, but by the first HIT."


You can have the fanciest, fastest, deadliest and most impressive firearm in the world, absolutely dripping with combat goodies. When all is said and done, such a firearm is absolutely useless if you can't use it to put a round (or two, or three) where you want it to go. Y'all have probably figured out by now that I own quite a variety of firearms, and that I'm fairly proficient with all of them. So what's my choice for a home-defense weapon?

In my bedside table I keep a well-used 4-inch Smith & Wesson Model 19, loaded with .38+P Hydrashoks. The only "fancy" things about it are an action job and a set of Hogue grips. It looks very much like this:



I chose it because, if I'm suddenly jarred awake in the middle of the night, its about as simple as they come. I chose it because I actually don't need the sights to hit with it. And I chose it because my wife - a natural instinct shooter, btw - can use it just as well (maybe better) than I can.

I also have a 12-gauge riot gun in the closet, but it isn't my primary tool.
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Old 12-08-2010, 01:22 PM
 
Location: Near the water
8,231 posts, read 11,567,105 times
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^ Massad Ayoob is a must read author!
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Old 12-08-2010, 03:44 PM
 
3,511 posts, read 4,444,335 times
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.22 LR is not a good self defense round. Most are mass produced and are not reliable enough for that purpose. It's fine and dandy plinking cans with your Ruger MKII, MKIII or 10-22, but I wouldn't bet my life on it. How many FTF's do have on the range? How many stovepipes or misfires? It's not worth it when center fire is much more reliable and suited for that purpose. Will a 22 LR always penetrate a heavy jacket, in particular heavy leather winter jacket? Will a 22 LR always penetrate and not deflect off of glass (ie a windshield)? Not reliably it won't. Unless you use it in a revolver, I would refrain from using it for self defense. Even then, it is far outclassed by other calibers. Shooting critters and pests it works fine. Betting your life on it....... I'd go with something else. 9MM is still what I would recommend for a woman. Less felt recoil than a .38 Special and a hell of a lot cheaper to shoot. Not to mention 9MM is always more powerful than a .38 Special. Save the J-frames for back-ups and summer carry. Also in your home, you could be faced with a situation of defending a position. The more firepower the better. Sure we all keep a S&W 686 or a Ruger SP101 or a S&W 642 in a drawer, but we also have a GLOCK, SIG , Beretta, HK , 1911 or whatever nearby as well. Suppose 3 perps busted down your door and rushed in. How is that 5 or 6 shot revolver going to fare for you? I never miss and even I wouldn't rely on one alone. If you really want to incapacitate someone immediately, the calibers start at 9MM for a primary. Anything less is a gamble. I say this with all my love of my BACK-UP S&W 642.

Last edited by Axle grease; 12-08-2010 at 04:42 PM.. Reason: puntuation
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Old 12-08-2010, 04:56 PM
 
3,511 posts, read 4,444,335 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chromekitty View Post
Of course they would.....if they have a product that don't believe in, it's a moot point really. However, IMO accessories such as Crimson Trace become a crutch for people, that is the short of it.
Learn how to shoot. I completely agree with you. Too many people rely on gadgets and can't hit the broadside of a barn EVEN USING THEM!!! Night sights are a definite go. Lazers......... meh it's a toy! Use one if you want but don't rely on it. If you don't maintain proper sight picture, trigger control or grip and stance you won't hit anything anyway. Twelve inch circle in center mass with Crimson lazer grips or some other type.... big whoop! 1 1/2 inch circle in center mass with standard or night sights. That's someone who practices and knows how to shoot. BTW, I've tried them I think they SUCK!! It's pretty bad when you just shut the damn thing off or take the grips off that are nearly $225-$300 and throw them in a drawer!

Last edited by Axle grease; 12-08-2010 at 05:29 PM..
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Old 12-08-2010, 09:07 PM
 
Location: Nebraska
4,228 posts, read 7,230,345 times
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". . .
What's my best option? I'm going to call a couple of local ranges and find out about training and to see if they rent guns...I live in a restrictive state and have to jump through hoops to be legally armed (which is my intent.)

Recommendations? Browsing gun forums and online gun stores is a bit overwhelming.[/quote]
One gun is not best for all situations. If you can get a license to carry a handgun in your state that is a good option when you are away from the house. I like revolvers. A good purse gun would be something like a Smith & Wesson double action in .38 caliber. A light frame with a three to five inch barrel. I prefer a revolver because it has no safety to mess with and a good quality double action is one of the most reliable weapons on the market. Just pull the trigger and it fires.

Once you are inside your house a good shotgun is the best self defense weapon you can have. Talk to a firearms instructor to get his opinion on what is best for you. One thing to remember is that gun dealers are not always going to sell you the weapon that is best for you. A firearms instructor not connected to any gun shop will usually offer better advice. Practice as much as possible with both weapons. Learn about the different types of ammunition that are best to use in different situations. For instance in a crowded apartment building with neighbors just a wall away from your apartment a shotgun with a light load of #9 shot might be your best option. Number nine shot would be deadly to a human being at close range but after penetrating through a couple sheets of drywall it will still pose a danger but not as likely to be fatal. There is a lot to learn and a forum like this is not the place. A qualified firearms instructor that teaches self defense classes is your best source of information.

GL2
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Old 12-08-2010, 09:26 PM
 
4,101 posts, read 6,110,527 times
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Default What kind of firearm do I need?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Farrowlane View Post
Hi there Chiroptera!

I think that you will need 2 guns.

For home defense:

A Weatherby PA-459 TR Shotgun

This is a pump shotgun with a pistol grip. When would be thugs hear you pump it, there's no other sound quite like it for threatening. You might want to blast one in the air, just to scared them as you put the dogs on the chase!

Train your dogs not to go any further than a certain point when chasing. They should be able to stop and return upon command.

For personal defense:

Get a Beretta Tomcat .32 caliber semi-automatic pistol.

It's smaller and more concealable than the other handguns mentioned here so far. If your hands are small, you should be able to palm this handgun and still have it concealed.

It's perfect for walking at night and having it ready to go. Nobody will ever be the wiser. I know because I once saw a person do just that!

If you're at home and you feel threatened, immediately put your home self-defense coat on and grab your shotgun. Your HSDC should have your Beretta already in it, with an extra clip, filled to capacity, with one ready to place into the chamber . It should also have 4-5, 12 gauge shotgun shells, and a cell phone. Keep all your ammo in one pocket and the cell phone in the other. Also have a pen light in your HSDC.

Everyday, train your dogs to be aware of sounds both in and around your house.

Be Safe!

Take A firearms course so the you can learn to handle your guns safely!

Good Luck!

I can not believe that anyone would suggest you fire a firearm into the air. In most locales such action would get you a hefty fine if not jail time. Shooting around dogs might scare your dogs if they are not used to being around gun fire, and if they arn't, they would be useless in helping to protect you.

Having dogs in your home will help deter intruders, but everyone thinks differently and what might scare off one burglar will not scare off the next. The sound of a siren will not scare off every burglar, nor will the sound of working the action on a pump shot gun. Even though I'm a male and feel capable of protecting myself, there are situations where I would be hard pressed be the victor in a fight. Situational awareness is an absolute must, pay attention to what is going on around you and what could happen in your home. Visit a gunstore and a range. But remember, they are going to try to sell you just about anything they can talk you into buying. A revolver is easier for a novice to manipulate, but the semi auto pistol is easier to shoot. A revolver will function regardless of neglect, an semi auto pistol will not. A shotgun is good but has it's limitations in tight places like a bathroom or other small rooms, it is easy to lose control of a larger weapon if you are not a fighter. Buy a handgun that is 40 caliber at least, and practice until you know how to use it. If you can't or won't practice and learn to use a hand gun, don't get one, get a fly swatter instead. You need to learn all the consequenses of owning and using a firearm to defend yourself. Some people couldn't shoot another, even to protect themselves. I suggest you read In the Gravest Extreme by Massad F. Ayoob. This book will answer many questions, and is written by an expert.
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Old 12-08-2010, 09:57 PM
 
29,988 posts, read 37,050,906 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chromekitty View Post
Of course they would.....if they have a product that don't believe in, it's a moot point really. However, IMO accessories such as Crimson Trace become a crutch for people, that is the short of it.
I would have agreed with you several years ago. However, for home defense in the dark I don't think so. We can agree to disagree instead of going into a CT training diatribe in this thread.

Johninvegas, I agree about the recoil on the 12 vs. 20 ga. shotties. I find a 12 ga is also faster to reload rather than getting your thumb "bit", IMO. 12 ga slugs are also more readily available than 20ga. slugs. As a woman I was surprised to find the 12 easier to handle than the 20 and resisted the change over for years.

Nyte Ryder, you are spot-on with the comments about firing a warning shot into the air. That is insanity and anyone who suggests it is not a credible source.

An instructor I respect tells his students the following: "You are morally, legally, and financially responsible for the terminal resting point of each and every round that leaves the barrel of your firearm."

I'll close my comments in this thread with the following:

Col. Jeff Coopers 4 Rules of Firearms Safety

RULE I:ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY
RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

http://thefiringline.com/Misc/safetyrules.html

Two other must read books:
Principals of Personal Defense by Col. Jeff Cooper
Modern Technique of the Pistol by Greg Morrison

Last edited by lifelongMOgal; 12-08-2010 at 10:15 PM..
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Old 12-08-2010, 10:11 PM
 
4,101 posts, read 6,110,527 times
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Default What kind of firearm do I need?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johninvegas View Post
Here's my thoughts and you can take them or leave them as you want.

First, I think the idea that bad guys are intimidated by the sound of a pump shotgun is pretty much an urban myth. The truth of the matter is that many of these guys are hopped up on drugs and really don't care if you have a firearm or not...they want to kill you or rape you and that's that. If that's the case and he's in your home already, you need to put a round in him as soon as possible after identifying the subject. That means keeping the shotgun with one up the tube and safety on. Still on the subject of shotguns, a 12 ga. is much better than a 20. Many more loads, including non-lethal self defense loads are available. If the shotgun's stock is correctly sized for you, the recoil will not be that bad.

Second, many of the really small pistols are very hard on the hand, even with small calibers. If you have small hands, you really need to take that into consideration. People will say, "well, in a real life situation, you won't notice the recoil." That may be true, but you have to put many rounds down range to get proficient with the gun and if you become recoil-shy, you won't practice with it.

Mac muz has pretty much said enough about the tomcat. I would add the Walther ppk to the list to avoid. I've fired one and the recoil is heavy for such a small caliber, simply due to the design of the grip and recoil system. Much better in the .380 is the Sig P232.

My suggestion for a gun would be either a small S&W snubnose or the Ruger SP101. The SP101 is a bit on the heavy side, but is small and will handle a .357 so is strong as can be.

I would also suggest Crimson Trace laser sights (not sites!). If you are in the dark, trying to line up sights on a target is really hard, even with tritium. The laser gives you a spot to shoot. I disagree that it will take too much time to line up the laser. It's at least as fast as trying to find your sights in the dark.

As others have said, attitude is very important, more than the weapon.

Very good advice!!! I own eleven sets of Crimson Trace laser grips. No, I don't work for the company. But I know what works and works everytime. When you have to put your life on the line, you want the best. Anyone that says Crimson Trace is too slow just has not used them, and doesn't know what they are talking about. I've used flashlights for night shooting before Crimson Trace was on the market, scary at best because most flashlight arn't all that bright when they are used night after night. I have not found anything that beat Crimson Trace for accuracy and speed at night or in low light situations.

As far as feeling teenagers are not always a big threat, think again. Many of them will kill you without giving it a thought, and with no hesitation. Develope an attitude that you are going to do whatever it takes to survive.

As far as firearms go, if you ever talk to a medical examiner you will find out what calibers work fairly well and which do not. When someone is shot with a firearm, they don't act like they are portrayed on TV. Even if a hit is fatal, they can still live long enough to kill you or hurt you. There is a reason police advise not to let a person armed with a knife get closer than 20 feet from you. At that distance, they can strike quicker than you can fire a gun. Nothing, absolutely nothing takes the place of practice. I do my own reloading and try to practice every Wednesday.
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Old 12-08-2010, 10:36 PM
 
3,511 posts, read 4,444,335 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nite Ryder View Post
Very good advice!!! I own eleven sets of Crimson Trace laser grips. No, I don't work for the company. But I know what works and works everytime. When you have to put your life on the line, you want the best. Anyone that says Crimson Trace is too slow just has not used them, and doesn't know what they are talking about. I've used flashlights for night shooting before Crimson Trace was on the market, scary at best because most flashlight arn't all that bright when they are used night after night. I have not found anything that beat Crimson Trace for accuracy and speed at night or in low light situations.

As far as feeling teenagers are not always a big threat, think again. Many of them will kill you without giving it a thought, and with no hesitation. Develope an attitude that you are going to do whatever it takes to survive.

As far as firearms go, if you ever talk to a medical examiner you will find out what calibers work fairly well and which do not. When someone is shot with a firearm, they don't act like they are portrayed on TV. Even if a hit is fatal, they can still live long enough to kill you or hurt you. There is a reason police advise not to let a person armed with a knife get closer than 20 feet from you. At that distance, they can strike quicker than you can fire a gun. Nothing, absolutely nothing takes the place of practice. I do my own reloading and try to practice every Wednesday.
They aren't exactly slow, they just aren't that accurate. Point of aim versus point of impact is not even what I would call acceptable. Even when you TRY to adjust them with the little Allen wrench. What do you practice at 5 yards, 7 yards? The buds and I go all distances and most is at 15-20 yards. If you can hit at 15-20 yards, you sure can at 3, 5 or 7. There is no substitute for correct use of sights...... non. At that distance the dot is jumping all over the paper even bench rested. USE YOUR SIGHTS. IMO Meprolite are the best night sights you can buy.
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