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Unread 01-15-2011, 12:42 PM
 
Location: Providence, RI
3,591 posts, read 4,368,658 times
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Do you really feel that we are worse off than many other times in our history????? Here is a short list of what America has already survived.....

1. Revolutionary War: capture and invasion of coastal cities by the British, much destruction in Boston & Newport, Manhattan, New Jersey. The total American casualty figure (inc. sickness and POW deaths) was as high as 50,000.

2. The Panic of 17961797 was a series of downturns in Atlantic credit markets that led to broader commercial downturns in both Britain and the United States. In the US, problems first emerged with the Bubble of land speculation bursting in 1796. The crisis deepened into a broader depression when the Bank of England, which faced insolvency due to the exploding cost of the French Revolutionary Wars, suspended specie payments in February 1797. In combination with the unfolding collapse of the U.S. real estate market, the Bank of England's action had developing disflationary repercussions in the financial and commercial markets of the coastal United States and the Caribbean through the turn of the century.

3. War of 1812: battle deaths about 7000. British forces occupied Washington, D.C. and set fire to many public buildings following the American defeat at the Battle of Bladensburg. The facilities of the U.S. government, including the White House, were largely destroyed, though strict discipline and the British commander's orders to burn only public buildings are credited with preserving the city's private buildings.

4. The Panic of 1819; caused by inflation, public debt from the War of 1812 and the Louisiana Purchase. The Panic had a lasting affect on the American banking system and directed attention to the crucial 1819-1821 session of Congress. Many of the changes and attempted changes to American financial policies during this economic crises would feed Southern sectionalism that lead to the American Civil War.

5. Major cholera epidemics struck the United States in the years 1832, 1849, and 1866. In 1848: New York City: more than 5,000 killed. There were smaller epidemics between the major ones.

6. The Panic of 1837 was a panic in the United States built on a speculative fever. The bubble burst on May 10, 1837 in New York City, when every bank stopped payment in specie (gold and silver coinage). The Panic was followed by a five-year depression, with the failure of banks and record-high unemployment levels.

7. The New York Draft Riots (July 13 to July 16, 1863; known at the time as Draft Week), were violent disturbances in New York City that were the culmination of discontent with new laws passed by Congress to draft men to fight in the ongoing American Civil War. The riots were the largest civil insurrection in American history apart from the Civil War itself. President Abraham Lincoln sent several regiments of militia and volunteer troops to control the city. The protesters were overwhelmingly working class men, resentful because they believed the draft unfairly affected them while sparing wealthier men, who could afford to pay a $300.00 Commutation Fee to exclude themselves from its reach.

8. According to the 1860 U.S. census, 393975 individuals owned 3950528 slaves. From 1654 until 1865, slavery for life was legal within the boundaries of much of the present United States. Before the widespread establishment of chattel slavery (outright ownership of the slave), much labor was organized under a system of bonded labor known as indentured servitude. This typically lasted for several years for white and black alike, and it was a means of using labor to pay the costs of transporting people to the colonies.

9. Civil War: In 1865, more than 600,000 soldiers had died, almost 2 percent of the U.S. population at that time.

10. The Panic of 1873 was the start of the Long Depression, a severe nationwide economic depression in the United States that lasted until 1879. It was precipitated by the bankruptcy of the Philadelphia banking firm Jay Cooke & Company on September 18, 1873

11. Chicago fire of 1871 leveled most of the business district. Grasshopper plagues of 1874, 1875 and 1876.

12. The Johnstown Flood occurred on May 31, 1889. The flood killed over 2,200 people and caused $17 million of damage.

13. The Panic of 1893 was a serious economic depression in the United States that began in 1893.Similar to the Panic of 1873, this panic was caused by railroad overbuilding and shaky railroad financing which set off a series of bank failures. Compounding market overbuilding and a railroad bubble was a run on the gold supply and a policy of using both gold and silver metals as a peg for the US Dollar value.

14. The Galveston, Texas, hurricane of 1900 had an estimated death toll between 6,000 and 12,000.

15. On 9 March 1916, General Villa ordered nearly 500 Mexican members of his revolutionary group to make a cross-border attack against Columbus, New Mexico. They attacked a detachment of the 13th Cavalry Regiment (United States), seizing 100 horses and mules, and setting part of the town on fire. 18 Americans and about 80 Villistas were killed.

16. Women were disenfranchised until 1920. In 1920, women finally won the right to universal suffrage without restrictions.

17. The Great Depression was a severe worldwide economic depression in the decade preceding World War II. The timing of the Great Depression varied across nations, but in most countries it started in about 1929 and lasted until the late 1930s or early 1940s.
Hooverville was the popular name for shanty towns built by homeless people during the Great Depression- named after President Herbert Hoover, because he allegedly let the nation slide into depression. In 1933, one in four Americans who wanted to work was unable to find a job. Homelessness was present before the Great Depression, and hobos and tramps were common sights in the 1920s, but the economic downturn increased their numbers and concentrated them in urban settlements close to soup kitchens run by charities.

18. The New England Hurricane of 1938 (killed between 682 and 800 people, damaged or destroyed over 57,000 homes, and caused property losses estimated at $306*million ($4.7*billion in 2005 dollars)

19. More wars, Spanish American, WWI, WWII (German subs off US coasts), Korean war, Vietnam war and so on.

20. At the height of the polio epidemic in 1952, nearly 60,000 cases with more than 3,000 deaths were reported in the United States alone.

21. Race riots of the 1960s. Law enforcement authorities took extraordinary measures to end the riots, sometimes including the mobilization of National Guard units. The most deadly riots were in Detroit (1967), Los Angeles (1965), and Newark (1967). Measuring riot severity by also including arrests, injuries, and arson adds Washington (1968) to that list.

22. Cuban missile crisis of 1962. America was very close to a Russian nuclear attack.

23. In the wake of the 1973 oil crisis and the 1979 energy crisis, stagflation began to afflict the economy of the United States. Unemployment had risen from 5.1% in January 1974 to a high of 9.0% in May 1975. In response to the inflation of 1979, governments in both UK and US adopted Monetarist policies - tight monetary and fiscal policy. This caused a deep and long last recession 1979-81, with rising unemployment.

24. The early 1980s recession was a severe recession in the United States which began in December of 1980 and ended in November 1982. It has been thought that the primary cause of the recession was a contractionary monetary policy established by the Federal Reserve System to control high inflation.

25. Hurricane Katrina of the 2005 Atlantic hurricane season was the costliest hurricane as well as one of the five deadliest, in the history of the United States. Among recorded Atlantic hurricanes, it was the sixth strongest overall.
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Unread 01-15-2011, 01:49 PM
 
Location: Peoples Republic of Cali
9,194 posts, read 4,190,747 times
Reputation: 4973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollytree View Post
Do you really feel that we are worse off than many other times in our history????? .
Absolutley not,
But we as a nation aren't as good off as we were 20, 30, even 40 years ago. Corporate America and our current round of politicians don't care about the citizenry of the country they only care about profits and making more money. Both political parties are guilty for the one world economy, free trade (that costs the middle class) and reckless spending of the taxpayers doller. Over 100 years ago elderly were taken care of by thier children, and we are well on our way back to those times. Corporate America no longer offers pensions to thier employees, you might get a 401k that the company matches 2%. Meanwhile corporate profits are through the roof. Or they move jobs overseas, good for others bad for American Middle Class
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Unread 01-15-2011, 02:59 PM
 
Location: Providence, RI
3,591 posts, read 4,368,658 times
Reputation: 2519
What you say is true- especially about corporate profits which has always been the case!!- but don't forget that there have always been boom and bust cycles in economics.

It is true that the middle class that was so prosperous in the post WWII years is now shrinking, and we do seem to be in a cycle where the rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer. But, it is not as if we've never been here before.

The rise of the middle class was unprecedented in American history, and we are seeing it regress due to corporate desire for more profit. They've gone overseas because they "need" foreign workers to exploit.

This doesn't mean the US is going to descend into chaos any time soon!!! It just means the average working stiff will be somewhat worse off.
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Unread 01-15-2011, 05:05 PM
Status: "Live Slow; Live Small." (set 11 days ago)
 
Location: 125 Years Too Late...
5,808 posts, read 4,522,669 times
Reputation: 5729
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollytree View Post
\This doesn't mean the US is going to descend into chaos any time soon!!!
Doesn't mean it's not, either. I don't have the crystal ball you seem to be looking into, but based on other governments that have already come to the end of the dead end road we're cruising down, it may not have a happy ending. Who knows? But the problem is the same as it is for a lot of other things--oh no... it can never happen to us!


Even though it HAS happened to countless other governments. When you correctly solve 2x + 5 = 31 , you're going to get the same result every time. We've seen Argentina, Greece, Iceland, Spain, and a bunch of other countries solve the equation and get 13. But being the hard-headed, arrogant Americans we are, we're just positive we'll come up with something besides a 13.

And to make matters worse, this is the first time we will be facing the crisis as a collectivist/socialist country. All of the other crises referred to earlier were during times when people were far more self-sufficient on the whole. Nowadays self-sufficiency is laughed at... until the government shuts down. Ask a Greek. Or ask one of the Argentines who set themselves on fire when the government/system couldn't provide for them any longer.
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Unread 01-16-2011, 09:10 AM
 
Location: Providence, RI
3,591 posts, read 4,368,658 times
Reputation: 2519
I think this is an over reaction. There is a global recession right now- many countries, including our own, have financial troubles. The point I am trying to make is that we have been through very hard times before and the very arrogance that you are pointing out may be the very trait that helps us prevail once again.

Also, I just can't imagine that everyone in Argentina, Greece, Iceland, and Spain has run into the hills in a Mad Max scenario arming themselves to the teeth and living in huts.

Seriously folks, if an individual in the US wants to be more self sufficient, why not go for it? No one is stopping them. It would certainly be patriotic and help our Socialist welfare system if someone wanted to eschew collecting social security, unemployment, Pell grants, public transport, and any and all other government funded programs. Hey, monitor your air quality, forecast your own weather, monitor your food supply, and build your own roads while you're at it. Maybe we need more volunteerism and less Chicken Littleism.
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Unread 01-16-2011, 10:23 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
68,250 posts, read 28,788,348 times
Reputation: 15533
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollytree View Post

Also, I just can't imagine that everyone in Argentina, Greece, Iceland, and Spain has run into the hills in a Mad Max scenario arming themselves to the teeth and living in huts.
But the ones in Tunisia did I'm sure as the city burns down.
They are on their 2nd interim government since Friday.

High unemployment, government corruption, increasing food prices.

Gunfire in Tunisian capital as future in question - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110116/ap_on_re_af/af_tunisia_riots - broken link)


These are words that describe the who and why of the riots:

Tunisia Riots: The Youth Revolution - Newsweek
"These events are resonating so widely because the core problems of Tunisia are common to just about every country in the region: a growing population of young people who are at once educated and ambitious, unemployed and frustrated, muzzled and resentful."
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Unread 01-16-2011, 10:25 AM
Status: "Live Slow; Live Small." (set 11 days ago)
 
Location: 125 Years Too Late...
5,808 posts, read 4,522,669 times
Reputation: 5729
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollytree View Post
I think this is an over reaction.
It always is... until something bad happens. Nowadays it's considered an overreaction to carry a coat in your car when it's 10 degrees outside. That's just what this society has become--a society who believes nothing bad can ever happen to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollytree View Post
Also, I just can't imagine that everyone in Argentina, Greece, Iceland, and Spain has run into the hills in a Mad Max scenario arming themselves to the teeth and living in huts.
If that's the perception you wish to keep for anyone who believes in being prepared for a rainy day, that is your prerogative. All I can say is that it is overwhelmingly inaccurate. I'd challenge you to find anyone like this. I fear you'd have a hard time doing it. Sounds more like a drug operation to me.

I wouldn't expect you to see the value or logic of being prepared for a disaster of any sort. That sort of logic has been systematically erased in our system since around the sixties. I vaguely recall being taught about the wisdom of preparedness in grade school. The agenda was changed somewhere around that time. Now we learn about much more important things like how to properly don a condom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollytree View Post
Seriously folks, if an individual in the US wants to be more self sufficient, why not go for it? No one is stopping them.
Over-regulation and dictatorial laws are making it harder and harder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollytree View Post
It would certainly be patriotic and help our Socialist welfare system if someone wanted to eschew collecting social security, unemployment, Pell grants, public transport, and any and all other government funded programs.
Most of the programs were in place long before I was born. That's the way it's done: if it's always been that way, no one questions it. I have no problem paying taxes for the services and securities that the federal government is supposed to be providing. Beyond that, I'm a firm believer in the fee-for-service business model. You use it, you pay for it. If you can't afford it, don't buy it. Although I don't believe in corporate capitalism, I firmly believe in an individual-based free market system. So, sure, if you can find a way for me to opt out of getting my "free" butt wiping by the government, I'd appreciate the info. I'd opt out of 95% of it right now. You can start with demonstrating to me how to get out of the repealed 13th amendment (the Health Slavery Law) without becoming a member of the Christian Science church. That'd be a great start and would be much appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollytree View Post
Hey, monitor your air quality, forecast your own weather, monitor your food supply, and build your own roads while you're at it. Maybe we need more volunteerism and less Chicken Littleism.
The earth survived for around 4.5 billion years before your wise, omnipotent leaders started monitoring air quality a few years ago (as a way to tax you more). I suspect it's going to survive for the length of time it's going to survive whether you monitor the air or not.

Volunteerism is largely dead. It was killed by a collectivist government that feels it is supposed to do everything for you (and TO you for that matter). It's now called taxed conscription. Volunteerism was when you shoveled the snow from the sidewalk for the little old lady next door. Now most people are too lazy to shovel their own. Volunteerism was picking up something from the grocery store for her. Now we just send her to the old folks home to die. Volunteerism was being prepared enough to offer some food or money to your neighbor if he/she was out of a job, injured, or otherwise down on his/her luck. But then, you don't believe in being prepared, right? Besides, most of us are too busy jumping through hoops to even know who our neighbor is.

Preparedness is not a matter of chicken littleism, it's a matter of statistics and probability. It's also a matter of common sense--something that went out of style when our "chicken little" grandparents died.



Where there is no vision, the people perish. You could read the parable of the ten virgins as well.

Last edited by ChrisC; 01-16-2011 at 10:53 AM..
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Unread 01-16-2011, 11:05 AM
Status: "Live Slow; Live Small." (set 11 days ago)
 
Location: 125 Years Too Late...
5,808 posts, read 4,522,669 times
Reputation: 5729
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
These are words that describe the who and why of the riots:

Tunisia Riots: The Youth Revolution - Newsweek
"These events are resonating so widely because the core problems of Tunisia are common to just about every country in the region: a growing population of young people who are at once educated and ambitious, unemployed and frustrated, muzzled and resentful."
Amen. Very similar to the condition we are in right now. I don't want anyone to take what I'm going to say in the wrong way--I firmly believe in education and the pursuit of knowledge (both academic and otherwise). It's a huge part of my life. But, at the same time I see a horrifying flaw in using that academic knowledge as a be-all-end-all. We have educated an entire nation of individuals with largely worthless skills should our collective sandcastle loose it's integrity. And I'm right there in that castle with the rest of you. But at least I see the potential for calamity. At least I don't ignore that potential. At least I try to work out a Plan B.

Last edited by ChrisC; 01-16-2011 at 12:22 PM..
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Unread 01-16-2011, 11:32 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
68,250 posts, read 28,788,348 times
Reputation: 15533
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
Amen. Very similar to the condition we are in right now. I don't want anyone to take what I'm going to say wrong--I firmly believe in education and the pursuit of knowledge (both academic and otherwise). It's a huge part of my life. But, at the same time I see a horrifying flaw in using that academic knowledge as a be-all-end-all. We have educated an entire nation of individuals with largely worthless skills should our collective sandcastle loose it's integrity. And I'm right there in that castle with the rest of you. But at least I see the potential for calamity. At least I don't ignore that potential. At least I try to work out a Plan B.
If you look more into this, since Friday several countries have spoken about adding government subsidies to food/energy.
These countries ARE NOT STUPID and are not ignoring what happened in Tunisia.

Jordan and Algeria are possibly next:
Jordanians protest against soaring food prices | World news | guardian.co.uk

High unemployment, high food prices and a widening gap between the haves and have nots. And you can attach almost any country to that statement.
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Unread 01-16-2011, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Providence, RI
3,591 posts, read 4,368,658 times
Reputation: 2519
[color="Red"]quote: "If that's the perception you wish to keep for anyone who believes in being prepared for a rainy day, that is your prerogative. All I can say is that it is overwhelmingly inaccurate. I'd challenge you to find anyone like this. I fear you'd have a hard time doing it. Sounds more like a drug operation to me.

[color="Black"]I fear you have totally misinterpreted my comment. Furthermore- Who said "not preparing for a rainy day" was a good thing?

I wouldn't expect you to see the value or logic of being prepared for a disaster of any sort. That sort of logic has been systematically erased in our system since around the sixties. I vaguely recall being taught about the wisdom of preparedness in grade school. The agenda was changed somewhere around that time. Now we learn about much more important things like how to properly don a condom."


Really? You certainly have made a huge unwarranted assumption here.
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