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You can get off ONE shot, tkdmom, but if it badly damages the wrist on your dominant hand (most likely the right), how about a second or third? I mean, I'm a big burly fellow, and I prefer having a pistol grip AND a buttstock on my shotguns. It's your choice, of course. Just try it BEFORE you begin relying on it, okay?
I'm thinking the only way to obtain wrist damage on a shotgun without a pistol grip is to not have a proper firing grip. If the thumb is wrapped around the stock instead of laying in such a manner that it is pointed forward along the top, no strain/sprain should occur. I don't like or see a need for pistol grips on a shotgun. They stick to my clothing and get in the way when I need to transition quickly to a sidearm. Why this happens for me with a shottie and not an AR I can't say for certain.YMMV
Nighteyes, in re: to 12 vs. 20 ga for women my statement comes from my own personal experiences. I shoot both and for argument sake I'll only compare Reminton 870's:
20 ga: lighter in weight, stock length (LOP) from factory is shorter though may still require shortening for proper fit, slug and buckshot a bit more difficult to find in volume at local sporting goods retailers, smaller loading port which can bite thumb when feeding shells/slugs at a rapid pace while shooting on the move.
12 ga: heavier weight noticed especially when keeping the gun raised and on target for extended periods of time, longer stock from factory often requires shortening for women to fit appropriately, buckshot and slug commonly available at local sporting good retailers, larger loading port keeps thumb from getting "bit".
The "Junior" Wingmaster Remington 870 will have a shorter stock from the factory than the Youth 870 Express in 20ga. Given that the Wingmaster is the better quality than the Express I recommend it first for those who can find one.
One must consider that the upper body strength for most women is not on par with that of men and weight of a long gun does make a difference when considering defensive purposes.
Of course, I am expecting that a person will actually train in defensive shotgun so that they actually know how to run a pump (a skill unto itself) and reload while on the move instead of just setting a loaded shotgun by the door in case of intruder. In reality, most will not. For those women I suggest a simple double barrel shotgun and that they be proficient in breaking it open to reload.
Respectfully, YMMV.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tkdmom
Hmm, I guess if you shoot it a lot, but if you're using it in a defensive manner ( inside your home) why would the recoil matter ?
If you cannot control the recoil you will not be able to get immediately back on target to follow through and fire the next shot if necessary. If you cannot control your gun you cannot be certain that your shot is going where you intended and not elsewhere. You are responsible legally, financially, and morally for the terminal resting point of every round that leaves your chamber.
You should be training with any firearm you own for defensive purposes. You are responsible in such a situation to hit your perceived lethal threat until it stops. You must know what is beyond your target and not fire in the direction of or hit innocents beside or beyond your target. This isn't Hollywood and you are not going to blow a predator through the wall like in the famous scene from "Open Range".
Please, get some training first from a reputable instructor, then buy the home defense tool that you can run the best.
Last edited by lifelongMOgal; 06-20-2011 at 11:24 AM..
So far as I know I never short stroked any pump guns in my life, but it's hard to say. My Dad had me out shooting before I can remember, and running pump guns is 2nd nature to me at this point. I can run them either lefty or righty and don't think much about it till someone says i was just shooting one way and switched and they noticed I did. I don't notice.
The only time I notice is running a bolt gun, and or my lefty flinter, which seems all wrong.
If you go with something entirely different... sure. But assuming 12 vs 20 is the only factor... (Or very close) Ex: a Remington 870 Youth model in 20, will NOT recoil more than a Remington 870 in 12.
(Why do you think they sell the youth model in 20)
OR, my First shotgun, a little Crackbarrel 20... DOES recoil less than one of the single shot 12's I've got laying around.
-Throwing other factors in there, sure it changes. All else being equal however (As If you were ACTUALLY comparing the rounds ve semi vs pump or something...) again Physics.
Sorry you cannot grasp that.
-Oh, since you seem to be having such a hard time with this... you should do the 'test' (If you will) with identical shot.
And stow the insults if you will. It does nothing to help your case and tempts me to return the favor and I'm trying to be good.
They sell a "youth" model because putting the word "youth" infront of the name and having an inch off the stock is a marketing ploy that works, nothing else. The stocks are still too long for most "youth".
You can argue physics all day long. A 20 ga. Remington 870 express does have a different felt recoil than a 12 ga. Remington 870. It is a sharper more abrupt recoil often accompanied by a higher muzzle rise while the recoil of the 12 ga. is a longer vertical push and while more powerful it is less "sharp" with less muzzle rise, in my experience.
Theories and physics are nice but unless they are applied and described though first hand experience (which I'm guessing you don't have with the similar upper body strength of a woman) they mean little in reality.
If you cannot control the recoil you will not be able to get immediately back on target to follow through and fire the next shot if necessary. If you cannot control your gun you cannot be certain that your shot is going where you intended and not elsewhere. You are responsible legally, financially, and morally for the terminal resting point of every round that leaves your chamber.
You should be training with any firearm you own for defensive purposes. You are responsible in such a situation to hit your perceived lethal threat until it stops. You must know what is beyond your target and not fire in the direction of or hit innocents beside or beyond your target. This isn't Hollywood and you are not going to blow a predator through the wall like in the famous scene from "Open Range".
Please, get some training first from a reputable instructor, then buy the home defense tool that you can run the best.
Yes, I know all of my responsibilities, and the legalities of owning a gun. And I have many years of training, but for some reason ppl keep missing that. I'm very responsible and I would NEVER do a Rambo on anyone or put the innocent in harms way. I really do value your knowledge, but it feels like I keep hearing the same thing over and over. So please understand, I know how to be safe with a firearm. Again, just so we are clear, I do have many years of experience. And of course, I will get some training with my new weapon, I mean, isn't that a given. I mean no disrespect in any way, I just want to make it clear that I'm not a newbie to weapons.
Yes, I know all of my responsibilities, and the legalities of owning a gun. And I have many years of training, but for some reason ppl keep missing that. I'm very responsible and I would NEVER do a Rambo on anyone or put the innocent in harms way. I really do value your knowledge, but it feels like I keep hearing the same thing over and over. So please understand, I know how to be safe with a firearm. Again, just so we are clear, I do have many years of experience. And of course, I will get some training with my new weapon, I mean, isn't that a given. I mean no disrespect in any way, I just want to make it clear that I'm not a newbie to weapons.
Ok, you say that but some of the questions you have posed, like the one about recoil, suggest that further learning needs to occur. Good luck with your choices and decisions moving forward.
Last edited by lifelongMOgal; 06-20-2011 at 01:30 PM..
They sell a "youth" model because putting the word "youth" infront of the name and having an inch off the stock is a marketing ploy that works, nothing else. The stocks are still too long for most "youth".
You can argue physics all day long. A 20 ga. Remington 870 express does have a different felt recoil than a 12 ga. Remington 870. It is a sharper more abrupt recoil often accompanied by a higher muzzle rise while the recoil of the 12 ga. is a longer vertical push and while more powerful it is less "sharp" with less muzzle rise, in my experience.
Theories and physics are nice but unless they are applied and described though first hand experience (which I'm guessing you don't have with the similar upper body strength of a woman) they mean little in reality.
While it is true that "Youth" models does involve marketing... that's not all. It is also true that 'fit' on a shotgun is much harder to get than on a rifle. (and IMHO more important)
And it is also that the 'felt recoil' is different.
Just like many of the women I have trained minded the 'Push' of a 45 less than the 'Snap' of a .40 (In otherwise the same gun)
IT'S STILL LESS POWDER!
And, go back and read what I said about the single shots...
Not theory:
I will admit, I don't exactly have the upper body strength of a woman...
but I remember getting that 20 gauge when I was 10. The 410 was 'too small' for what I wanted.
The 12 Guage was 'too much.
And the 20 was 'Just right'
(All single shots.)
And as I said... still have that little 20....
As I said... get them side by side with similar ammo and try for yourself. You'll see what I'm saying.
Ok, you say that but some of the questions you have posed, like the one about recoil, suggest that further learning needs to occur. Good luck with your choices and decisions moving forward.
I think you misunderstood my post, or perhaps I should rephrase what I posted above about recoil. What I meant was that in the event of a situation where you have discharged your weapon against an intruder and you have minor injuries ( say the recoil sprained your wrist) you would not feel it until after the adrenaline wears off. Your main focus would be, to get out of that situation, you wouldn't be worried about the recoil from your gun. That's what I was talking about. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
I think you misunderstood my post, or perhaps I should rephrase what I posted above about recoil. What I meant was that in the event of a situation where you have discharged your weapon against an intruder and you have minor injuries ( say the recoil sprained your wrist) you would not feel it until after the adrenaline wears off. Your main focus would be, to get out of that situation, you wouldn't be worried about the recoil from your gun. That's what I was talking about. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
As always, YMMV. Please-please-please, just try it out before you start depending on it, okay? I'm a 6-foot, broad-shouldered, former defensive lineman and airborne trooper (got the scars to prove it), and I don't like a pistol-gripped shottie...
As always, YMMV. Please-please-please, just try it out before you start depending on it, okay? I'm a 6-foot, broad-shouldered, former defensive lineman and airborne trooper (got the scars to prove it), and I don't like a pistol-gripped shottie...
Listen, Nighteyes, I don't plan on buying one with a pistol grip, I was simply asking why ppl don't like them, and from there it turned into a "omg, she's a loose cannon." No one actually said that, but that's how it was implied, imo. Let's just drop it and move on and continue our friendly conversations on firearms, ok.
Btw, I feel like I need to add that ex-hubby is law enforcement, a tactical unit to be exact, and I've gotten most of my training from him, plus I hold a blackbelt in TKD, and other weapons training...I'm just not the delicate type, got lots of upper body strength too. I'm still a girly-girl (love glitter and all things sparkly) but with a twist. So please understand that I do know what I'm doing.
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