After the collapse. (houses, quiet, water, cow)

[bentstrider]

So once civilization has already come crashing down for whatever reason and all the smoke has cleared, does everyone who hunkered down to try to bring about order?
Or will there be too many "new found lunatics" wandering about to make this process an effective one?

With all this gloom and doom talk running about this particular thread and the obvious current events running about, there's nothing wrong with preparedness.
I read through these everyday and try to think of what I could do on my limited budget and still live life a normal as possible.

But from what I gather here, there doesn't seem to be much thought put towards how the "afterward" part will play out.
Seems to me that after all the smoke has cleared, people can only stay angry and in riot/destruction mode for so long before they either accept reality and come up with a better solution for their problem.
Or burn themselves out and croak.

All that destruction will essentially take a toll on the overall health of the angry mob, so I don't see that factor existing for too long.

[FreedomThroughAnarchism]

The only problem with the "after" question is that it arguably gets into politics (or philosophy, ethics, etc... however you want to look at it). That's tread upon somewhat lightly in this particular discussion forum.

The casual observer might notice certain political and philisophical similarities among the participants of this forum, even though preparedness is supposed to transcend all political boundaries and apply to everyone (as it should). However, there are probably enough differences among us that if we got into the "what to do afterwards" question, peoples differences would become pretty apparent and it might lead to some bickering.

I suspect many here somewhat politely try to stay away from that to a large extent to such a degree that I don't even think many people here really even know the politics of the other participants to any great degree... since we keep such discussions for elsewhere (like the Politics and Other Controversies, Great Debate, and similar subgroups).

Still a good question worthy of discussion, though.

[SCGranny]

LOL, Funny, FreedomThroughAnarchism, when I read the OP, my mind went into overdrive on the scenarios... and not one was political, unless you consider perhaps socio-political.

Let's break it down. When we talk about "collapse", what are we actually talking about?

Stock market crash, banks closing their doors?
Financial meldown, massive hyperinflation, where it takes a wheelbarrow of dollars today to buy a loaf of bread, and a truckload tomorrow?
Food supplies are slowed dramatically or stopped all together?
Fuel is unaffordable for most?
Natural or man-made disasters that cause massive disruption in one area of the country?
A super-bug or virus?
A massive detrimental interruption in the food supply, like mad-cow disease, e-coli, or the bird flu, that kills off thousands of animals or renders many vegies/fruits inedible and makes the rest suspect?
An EMP or other electrical failure of the grid?

It rather depends on the scenario, doesn't it? In some of those scenarios, you will have Depression-like reactions; thousands of homeless people wandering the streets, looking for food and jobs. However, like I try to explain to people, "This will not be your grandpa's Depression" - there will be much less respect for private property, a much bigger reaction of anger and violence due to frustrated entitlement mavens finally being told they are cut off, a lot more law enforcement (local, state, and Federal) involvement. Perhaps anarchy; dog-eat-dog, barbarian-esque leaders and dictators rising -and falling. If it is Mad-Maxian anarchy, the cities will basically immolate themselves, with perhaps pockets of survivors banding together for strength and support. Leadership will not come through political promises and glad-handing, but through sheer strength of will and force, as well as access to and hoarding/selective distribution of supplies.

The other ways - massive deaths spreading outward from some infectious calamity or natural disaster, coupled with a loss of heat/fuel in the winter - will be a lot slower. People will huddle together quietly waiting for the infectious axe to fall, wearing their ineffectual and government-advised paper masks, boiling their water, hoping that the Angel of Death passes them by. They will be freezing to death in their unheated homes, trapped in slowly dying cities where there is no medical care, or no heat or light. Some apartments and houses, maybe whole city blocks or even suburbs and towns, will go up in flames, as people try anything to stay warm, to light candles to see, to try to cook their last scraps of food. (Yeah, I personally knew the guy in NC who, during the 3-day ice storm/power failure,actually lit his gas grill in his closed garage to boil a pot of coffee. The fire dept couldn't respond because of the trees/lines down and the ice on the roads. ) The slow grinding dying of infected or freezing or starving cities and towns, with the resulting lack of waste management and body disposal, will trap dying people with the rotting dead... and there will be no escape.

What happens after will probably be what normally happens after a cataclysm - some folks will lead, others will follow, still others will subvert and try to take command of different groups. There will be groups, neighborhoods, even towns that survive purely through strength of will, grouping of resources, and numbers, others that will die slow agonizing deaths as weather and the strenuous acts of basic survival take their tolls. There may be a leader or several who rise like cream to the top, and who start to communicate with other leaders and to reform the political and social structures again... barring any outside influences, like those danged Canadians trying to move in and take over (j/k, but you get my drift).

Most of the current government per se will collapse; many of the elected officials don't believe anything will happen to any such great extent and will deny it, trying to either dictate or lead, right up until they or ther families are infected or affected by violence. Others will flee to their special places hoping to survive - but taking the seeds of their destruction with them, be they communicable diseases or even the people they 'trust'. Such is the nature of the political beast that they will fight to stay in power as long as possible, and use any and every tool in their little bag of tricks and power plays to do so. Some might survive to lead a group or several. Most won't, because of their particular blindness to their own faults while pointing out the faults of others. Most leaders do not have leadeship ability without their podiums, adoring crowds, bought-and-paid-for supporters, and speechwriters. Like parasites attached to a dying dog, they will drop off once there is no more blood to be sucked off.

Anyway, that's my take. Some might think it is pretty gloomy and frightening, but actually I am pretty cheerful about it, on the whole. I believe in the S___ Happens rule, and have died already, 3 times. I'll fight it but I am not afraid of it - I'll just do what I can, and "the divil take the hindmost".

[Mac_Muz]

SCG. The only problem I see is that cops and other public servants won't be public servants with out pay, and have no better skills than anyone else. Calling them for help if phones even still work, is likey to end as endless ringing of the phone, and I doubt the phones will work for long.

Also going to the store to buy would most likey not be a question. No big shot with fuel is going to feed a combine, and no little guy is going to drive it around, when he knows he can't afford to buy what he harvests.

The masses have no idea what energy it costs to end up with sheves in store loaded with foods.

These foods appear like magic, and no one thinks of how the stuff is grown, harvested, made into something to eat and gets to the retail market. It's all magic.

Any leader who wants to lead isn't likey to be a leader in the first place. I am sure the folks at the btop, who all believe we can't live with out them, will be hunkered down in bunkers, hiding like the cowards they are. We won't see them again until they run out of supplies.

When we do from a office setting like Uncle Bob in Iraq had, they will broadcast how great everything things is, and when that draws un-wanted attention, if 'we' can see the broadcast at all, some predators are likey to cause the curtains to come down and the world or what's left of it will see the office is nothing more than a trailer, just like Uncle Bob's.

Man I loved that guy....... "We are driving the Americans BACK! (little cheers) The Americans have been forced from the Sadam International! (more little cheers) "Uh oh, the Americans are here right now!" "Uh oh." The curtains come down..... end of show. LOL

You're right, it depends. And no one stands a better than 50-50 chance no matter what they do, since no one knows the effect oof any collapse.

Years ago driving teams in winter to haul tourists, I noticed fear of the dark and fear of bears in dead winter. Bear semi hibernate here, and no bear can take on 2 draft horses and 28 people counting me.
Some people would panic at the loss of powered lighting, and would request to get off the pung and walk back. I could never allow that, since I felt they would end up dead before the 45 minute ride was done. Some would be upset to the point I would make threat to life and limb, since turning back was not any option. I made the words llike a joke, but the individual I was speaking too didn't take it as any joke.

IMO those who have strayed farthest from Nature will be first to die. The next will be those who can't live with out social occasion, basicly die of being lonely.

I didn't know about that till I lived the 3 years in the tee pee, and became hardened to that idea. But I sure felt it attack me. Had anyone else known, and asked me I woud have scoffed and laughed at the idea, but i won't anymore.

[ChrisC]

With a majority of the populace affected by entitlement-itis, power-hunger-itis, techno-dependency-itis, I'm-number-one-itis, my-way-is-the-only-way-itis, and several other horrid afflictions, I see the major challenge for anyone who is prepared for a Blow Out to be that of simply being "left alone" to implement those preparations. With our liberty being so under assault in relatively "normal times," I can only imagine what happens when things really go to hell. A nation full of spoiled brats and power-whores will not allow the individual to exist if they can help it. Mobs never do.

They will be mad as hell and won't put up with anyone who saw it coming. Their lack of preparation will be rewarded with the redistribution of your preparations unless you've figured out a way to prevent that. Because, it is their right, no? They might allow you to join hands with them and sing Kumbaya, though, if you fall in line and ask them nicely.

If you think "preppers" are knocked around by the masses now, wait until the time those masses find out the loony-tune preppers were actually correct.

[HappyTexan]

Originally Posted by ChrisC

With a majority of the populace affected by entitlement-itis, power-hunger-itis, techno-dependency-itis, I'm-number-one-itis, my-way-is-the-only-way-itis, and several other horrid afflictions, I see the major challenge for anyone who is prepared for a Blow Out to be that of simply being "left alone" to implement those preparations. With our liberty being so under assault in relatively "normal times," I can only imagine what happens when things really go to hell. A nation full of spoiled brats and power-whores will not allow the individual to exist if they can help it. Mobs never do.

They will be mad as hell and won't put up with anyone who saw it coming. Their lack of preparation will be rewarded with the redistribution of your preparations unless you've figured out a way to prevent that. Because, it is their right, no? They might allow you to join hands with them and sing Kumbaya, though, if you fall in line and ask them nicely.

If you think "preppers" are knocked around by the masses now, wait until the time those masses find out the loony-tune preppers were actually correct.

And those masses won't have a clue what to do with a live cow in the pasture and would walk past growing onions/potatoes because they've never seen them outside of a supermarket.

They'll be looking instead for fields of Kraft Mac&Cheese growing next to six packs of flavored mineral water

[FreedomThroughAnarchism]

Originally Posted by SCGranny

LOL, Funny, FreedomThroughAnarchism, when I read the OP, my mind went into overdrive on the scenarios... and not one was political, unless you consider perhaps socio-political.

When he mentioned "bring about order" in his first sentence, I kind of took that a certain way, even if not intended. Perhaps my mistake, don't know .... it was vague enough to cover a lot of ground.

I usually take the word 'order' to be peoples idea of "reforming society" in the sense of: "okay, so who do we put in charge of everyone now."

Perhaps I have just spend too much time in politics groups dealing with people who's very first reaction to big 'bumps in the road of life' happens to be "okay.... first order of business.... we need a leader who can solve our problems."

Then he mentioned lunatics running around. In an ordinary politics group, that's usually the point where people dredge up the silly "Somalia" argument, for those familiar with that. I sometimes forget that there's people that do not think like that.

[cynwldkat]

Those of us who have grown our own food and lived off the land have also learned to protect our land and things that are ours! We get our hands dirty and we sweat to raise and or earn what we have so believe me it will not be easy for any crazies to take from many of us!! Until death do us part!! Just my personal opinion.

[SCGranny]

Incidentally, don't know if too many people are aware of it, but USDA.gov has a place where you can sign up to get instant emails about recalled food items. If you think this is a good idea (forewarned is forearmed, right?) be advised - you will get at least three emails a week, usually more, about contaminated and recalled food and pharmacy items. What does that tell you?

[AK-Cathy]

One would hope that the group to restore order in one's immediate area will be small and rational.

Consider without modern transport (or communication) with the exception of very fit cyclists, blue water sailors with capable boats and ham radio operators (assuming they can generate power), one's effective range will be 20 to maybe 50 miles from home base and that is assuming one survives the initial crisis and that it is safe to be out and about.

Everything with be intensely local. Food production: local. Water: local. Healthcare: local. Sanitation: local. Security: local. Governance: local. We will be back to Stone Age tribalism in our societal functions.

Depending upon the scenario, some regional areas may remain relatively intact. Some governments may continue to function at least partially for a short time. Some will have benevolent dictatorships arise to restore order, others will be forced to live under criminal overlords or be forced to escape such a fate.

Afterward? It is as varied as the crisis scenario. The post apocalyptic movies and fction, while often employing unlikely or ridiculous dramatic notions, most contain nuggets of truth. Many point to scenarios of how order will be restored or OTOH, not.

One's skills, conditioning and mental toughness are perhaps the most important element in a personal positive outcome. I wrote this in another forum a while ago and it still stands true IMO. Sorry, it's a bit long...

First, if one doesn't have community of some sustainable size working together, most TEOTWAWKI plans will necessarily be of a short term "get through the initial crisis" nature at best. Without mutual aid and defense, unless one has a sizable and multi-skilled family or core group in a very isolated and life supporting environment with well laid in supplies (that will probably describe only a very small minority on the planet) then there is no real sustainability over multiple years going forward and that's considering that this is not a catastrophic natural event but more man made in nature.

Even though we easily have food and supplies to last for a lean 6-8 months in the house, keeping it in a social disorder scenario would be iffy at best. Because like the Boy Scouts we like to "be prepared" we have multiple platforms of either escape or respite depending upon the situation but they are realistically only short term solutions (meaning months rather than years) until some semblance of order is restored.

Anything else is outside of the scope of affordability for most people without major life altering commitments that few are able or willing to embrace. As for real and lasting preparations for any event I would think in terms of skills and traits that are looked for in the "lifeboat" game.

In a real meltdown scenario, survival communities will be looking for multi-skilled individuals, that don't use more than their fair share of the resources, that are mentally and physically stable and strong, that will add to rather than subtract from the whole. I see it like a workplace in a functional company. An employee (community member) either adds to the bottom line and merits his employment/paycheck/retention or does not and will be let go. It will be the same if society melts down and resources are scarce. Only those that add to a community will be allowed to stay on especially in the beginning.

Some deficits will immediately be too difficult to deal with such as addictions, mental health issues, physical infirmities, too many small children to care for etc. As cruel as it sounds, without society to support it's weaker and more vulnerable members it truly is a Darwinian moment and not a pretty one at that.

Given that I'm past my prime age wise, I understand that I and my husband would likely have to bring more skills/supplies to the table and be willing and able to keep up with younger workers if we expect to be part of such a community. There will be no management roles readily available. If nothing else, given the shape of the average American, perhaps physical fitness and the ability to rein in and control appetites and emotions may be the best possible and the most fundamental and necessary preparation that one could make.

In that regard, people that are able to master self control that have a modicum of real life skills will be light years ahead of those that packed away a year's worth of food but are hobbled by personal liabilities.

I realize it's almost un-American to bring up such issues but that's how I see it in an end-game scenario, lots of folks would be cut adrift, fairly or unfairly.

So, to prepare means more than stacking away food and supplies. It means learning how to produce necessary items, grow food, practice medicine/first aid in field conditions, improvise sanitation or security. It means learning how to do without, to think and act rationally under pressure, being able to work hard physically for 10-15 hours, to be an asset, not be a liability to the society in which one is left. To prepare means to curb addictions to tobacco, alcohol, drugs. Those taking medication need to know about producing natural alternatives.

Unfortunately, anything beyond survival of a real crisis to the restoration of order is wide open, highly luck dependent and can only be guessed at which is why it's not talked about much. Good question.