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There is a major reason that I wouldn't go off by myself, even if I were a man. This is going to sound majorly politically incorrect but believe me, it has nothing to do with race and it won't this time, if it happens. The word is slavery. If oil gets unavailable, those in power will need a way to get work done and they will do whatever they have to do to stay on top, even if it means forcing people into labor. The reason we don't have much slavery in this day and age has nothing to do with us being more evolved. Nope, machines have replaced it.
Slavery becomes more and more practical as the slave pool increases. In the antebellum Sout slaves were very expensive and had to be put to productive use in most enterprises. Only the wealthy could afford a full panoply of household slaves. The value of the slaves required that they be kept in good health and treated in ways that were not detrimental. This is in contrast to ancient Rome when slaves were cheap and plentiful. The owners could work them to death. However, educated slaves were rare and treated far better. For example, most physicians were either Greek slaves or descended from Greek slaves. They were often able to purchase their freedom and went on to own their own slaves.
Until the Nineteenth Century few were opposed to slavery as an institution. Not even slaves opposed it; they just wished to be on the other end. Slaves were almost always loyal to their masters; there are several accounts of slaves on slave ships aiding in the defense of the ship against pirates or belligerents. Arming slaves was common.
Today, however, people have become opposed to the notion of slavery to the point that they would be at least uncooperative slaves even if that were opposed to their best interests. It would be necessary to treat people enslaved as adults as prisoners, not the most efficient type of labor. The next generation would understand.
In addition to slavery, however, there should be a market for people to work at low wages or at dangerous jobs. World War I seems to have marked the end of sufficient numbers of good servants who would die for their masters, at least in the English speaking world. But if the labor pool were larger and without government regulation, working class people could employ at least part-time domestic help at affordable rates.
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With respect to the original proposal of the OP, I'll flatly state that it's silly. Unless an individual could avoid all human contact, his life would be short. Residents of an area wouldn't tolerate an unknown individual living in their midst in times of turmoil. In the absense of governmental structure individuals would eliminate any and all suspicious people.
The Great Depression was mentioned as an example, and I think that needs to be expounded on a little bit. If there is an economic meltdown, the same thing will happen as did during the Depression, only it will be exacerbated - many people who have hunted for pleasure will be hunting to survive, and game, especially in the Applachian/Eastern states, will be massively depleted. I don't know if many are aware of this, but some states actually no longer have 'indigenous' wild game like turkey or deer - after their severe depletion during the Depression, some states actually had to request breeding pairs of these species from other states, and carefully encourage their proliferation to repopulate their states. Areas that had mere hundreds of people with guns and the ability and knowledge to use them will, instead, have thousands, perhaps millions, swarming over and towards them, killing everything including rodents, reptiles, birds, and rabbits to survive.
These same people will lay waste whole forests for firewood as well as for planting. You can say, well, I'm not talking about city slickers, but that is what you will have, en masse, scouring every wooded plot and every open field, looking for game and firewood, even for a 'free' place to camp with their whole families. For a true woodsman to try to maintain his foraging fields and his woodlands, with a massive influx of starving families, he will have to, like any overpopulated species, narrow and narrow again, ever smaller, his hunting zone down, as many more of his species move in.
You have State Parks and Federal parks in Appalachia, and every single human nearby, who has been thrown out of their home, lost their job, has no income, no food, and no shelter, will be heading for the Appalachian Trail - because they think of it as 'free land', where the waters run 'free' and clear, the game runs 'free' - where everything is 'free', and is theirs for the taking. That salty old fella, whose shacks and trailers have been in his family for generations, the one with the double-barreled shotgun saying "Git offen mah land, flatlander!" will just send them further into the parks and along the trails, singly and in groups, some armed, some not, looking for a handful of this and a bucketful of that to survive. They will take 'anything that isn't tied down or red-hot'. They will move into any and every cave, lean-to, shack that they can find. And they will be dangerous once they light and set, because then everything they have, everything they see, will be theirs - even if it never was before. While many will die because of their unfamiliarity with indigenous plants "Look, honey - wild blueberries!" that turn out to be poisonous fruits, there will still be many who will strip the forests and hills of anything combustible (even if it's green!) and edible.
Sorry, i have to disagree - "Bugging out" except in an immediate disaster like flooding, a tornado, or a hurricane, where one will have the opportunity to return once the danger is passed, always seemed like a waste of time, energy, and a misdirection of resources to me. I believe that one should "bug IN" - in a place where one has access to not only what s/he has gathered, but knows the land, the people, the area, what the winters are like, what the growing seasons produce, what they can do and have done to prepare for it. Going to ANY place - no matter how wonderfully populated it is right now with wild game, firewood, and foodstuffs - where one does not have a claim, where one does not have a network of surviveability, where one is not intimately familiar with every sound or smell or movement and what it portends - would be disasterous and ultimately, very finally, dangerous.
At this time, I feel the need to restate the topic. Economic Holocaust: A complete breakdown of society with civil unrest and no law. A situation so bad that even the full might of the all armed forces of the United States cannot control. There will be no electricity, sewer, or other services normally provided by the government or private companies. I’m not talking about The Great Depression or the fall of the Soviet Union. This scenario would be much worse.
If you’re one to bug in, that’s fine. I’ve purposely asked for those that have basic survival skills and gear if any of them were considering escaping from the chaos that will obviously ensue in populated areas. Murder and mayhem so bad that the L.A. Riots will look like a church tea party.
Hence the entire idea that there will be millions scouring the Appalachians for food is a bit ridiculous in my opinion. I keep reading this in forums, and I’ve heard it from a lot of people in person. Food is always the first thing that they talk about or list. Food is pretty far down the list of sustainable survivability. Once a person has rudimentary survival skills and the basic 5 or 10Cs in their kit, the most important things are shelter and water. Without a way to purify water in the wild, sooner or later, the average person will get sick and die. Even simple diarrhea and vomiting due to a mild illness from contaminated water will kill a person without proper medical treatment, which will obviously be lacking in my scenario. Hence food obviously doesn’t belong at the top of anybody’s list in the scenario that I’ve put forward.
I’m not trying to diminish the importance of food, I’m simply stating that when I hear/read that food is the first thing out of somebody’s mouth/post, it seems obvious to me that they’ve got a lot to learn about basic survival. The Appalachians will quickly weed out anybody that lacks skills. The average camper, who probably knows more than everyday people do, doesn’t even know how to build a fire without a starter log… Hence, in a survival situation where it’s raining, has rained, and or is cold, they will not be able to build a fire, so they obviously won’t survive very long. Even without inclement weather, average camper can’t build a fire because he lacks a starter log…
I’ve restricted the area of the United States to the Appalachian Mountains. I’ve also called it survival for the common man. What that means is this. A common man that knows some survival skills doesn’t have a huge farm, money, or resources to stockpile. He lacks a safe reasonable means of escaping the lawless crowds fighting for shelter, water, and food. With so many people on the east coast within reasonable reach of the Appalachians, I was wondering if other survivalists with basic skills and a proper EDC kit were also thinking about bugging out into the mountains.
I have not been in all of the Appalachians, so I don’t know what it’s like in your area. In my area, there are not people living up there in trailers brewing moonshine that have six fingers. This isn’t “Wrong Turn.” Where I live, there are tens of thousands of acres of protected state game lands within walking distance. Another poster brought up that residents of an area wouldn’t tolerate somebody living in their midst. I will repeat this again until it’s covered exhaustibly. Nobody lives in the areas I’m speaking of. Two mountains have to be crossed with elevations of 1,200 feet in order to get to where I’m talking about. This will be a case of out of sight out of mind.
To those and the deer hunting stories. I am not talking about hunting big game. To kill a deer for one or two people is an utter waste. Hunting consumes far too many resources and calories. Hunting is the least effective method for procuring food in a survival situation. When there are natural fish, small critters, and birds around, there’s no need to kill deer. Moreover, fish, animal, and bird traps do not have to be attended to. They do the fishing/hunting for you 24/7.
Can this scenario happen? It could. Is it a remote possibility? I may well be. However, I feel that preparing for this type of scenario has the least amount of paranoia and the most amount of common sense because it doesn’t involve investing huge amounts of money and resources. In times like we have now, this is actually an enjoyable hobby that’s not very expensive. Therefore, my basic 10 piece kit that costs less than 100 dollars is something I can enjoy right now whenever I choose, and it will never go to waste.
Given that the Appalachians are about the only part of the east coast that isn't highly populated, I can see why they might have some appeal as a refuge. The only problem with it is, how many other people will think of it as a refuge, as well? None of us here are questioning your survival skills. You could go up there today and do just fine; but how will you fare a couple of weeks into a crisis, when others think of the mountains?
I happen to share your concerns regarding "economic holocaust" as a very real threat. Otherwise, what are we all doing on this forum? What other type of threat is there, except maybe a pandemic or so-called "terrorist" attack (both of which I feel are related to the economic situation). I won't go any farther than that with it. You are not the only one who has issues with the cost of preparedness in situ. I am not a rich man, and most on this forum are not, either. Very few of us here have a retreat that is all outfitted for armageddon.
Why don't you go scouting in them thar hills before just stating that you'd survive up there? Get topo maps, satellite maps, all kinda maps. Find the very summits of the mountains; memorize the narrow passes where others may have difficulty getting through. Know where the Trail is, and where the "hillbillies" live. Delineate the borders of the parks, all with your boots on the ground. What I'm saying is, have a plan. Know exactly where you're going to go. Be sure about it, as you may have to get there in the dark. A GPS may help, but don't depend on it; DOD can turn it off whenever they want to. If you don't want to spend any money, then you need to do the work -- well in advance.
After you've done all that, you'll have my blessing.
SCGranny has a very valid point that during the depression, the older members of my family noted that meat was hard to get because everybody was hunting for it.
Now one thing to remember is that the westward expansion with the mining towns and pioneers etc. had decimated the game herds, and there wasn't much out there before the depression hit, but as I have often heard from old timers, "If you found a track you stayed on it until you found it or you went hungry".
I do have the resources in place to fall back on in the event of an economic disaster, but I still have the skills in place to live with virtually nothing and survive just fine. I am not familier with the Applalachians, but I am intimately familier with the Rocky Mountains, and as I have a lot more space to work with, I could probably dissapear if I chose as the access to vast tracts of land is minimal, and I have spent years hunting those areas and am very comfortable with the resources there and my abilities to use them.
Montana is a long way from the major population centers, so I wouldn't look for a large influx of people coming here in a disaster simply because of the distances involved.
If the question boils down to "can you survive in the wilds with very few manufactured resources for an indefinite period", my answer is yes. Do I plan on that happening? No. However...the livestyle I live is conducive to minimal reliance on mass produced foods and other items. I do buy stuff for convenience, but I have practiced making basic equiment such as learning to knap stone, make cordage out of plant fibers, building traps out of whatever is lying around, making shelters, tanning hides to make clothing, I even can resole a pair of boots using either leather or better, old tires
If the situation requirement is to retreat to the backside of beyond and live without support or cash, it would be no problem.
My wife is as crazy as I am and we spend extended periods of time without interacting with other humans by living at our cabin in the mountains, or at remote camps while hunting.
It is just the way we live.
Could the vast majority of people from an urban setting do this? No. Not without a lot of time invested in training and the ability to completely change their perceptions of what it requires to actually live in this manner.
If someone has those skills and uses them, good for them
They are a very small minority of the population in my view.
A lot of game was hunted out in the east and a lot more numbers were lost in the 60 due to a lot of snow.
But there are also more recent come backs, and upstate NY and a lot of Pa suffer from thousands of car/ deer accidents each year.
NH hasn 't that deer either of those states have, but we have a lot of 2 decades turkey re-population. The moose have come back from being over hunted in the 1910/1920's in a big way, and cause hundreds of moose/car accidents around me each year.
Of course there isn't anyone going to get a deer a week in NH, but they might in upstate NY and or Pa for a while. In 1990 I counted one single heard of deer at 63, and counted 15 times.
Considering very few could go live that way, there might be room for someone who was willing to do that labor to live.
One deer can last me a pretty long time in the wild. You need to use it all, every bit, but you can go a long time on smoked and or sun jerked meats from one deer, and make a lot of other stuff from the other parts. To me a pretty long time is about 4 months, and a deer can feed 2 that long, mixed with other woodsland foods.
I don't mean 3 big meals a day, but I mean like 4 ounces of meat more or less everyday, and not suffing our faces to be over full, but to be lean and mean. I can make a 6 inch brooky last 3 days for 2 if I must. It will be a sorry day in hell when I can't catch enough brookies to feed me and my wife all we can stand, and with no fishing gear made for and sold in stores.
You don't even need pots and pans for either of these. Just fire and strong enough sticks.
But Silvertips is right most people can't do this. The regulars in here all stand a fair chance. Just think of all the folks in CD who don't even drop in here!
In a full blown shtf senario, who says cash will be any good for anything except maybe butt wipe. My Grandfather had rather a lot of money in the Depression, and he still couldn't buy what wasn't offered. In the 50's as a wee lad he was always telling me about how his money was no good.
He suffered rationing in WW-2 as well and horded rubber car tires that were no good by the time he needed them.
Funny people laugh at me all the time and have for years about my wasting time learning all the 'caveman' skills, but when things go south it seems all of them want help from me.
I end up having a party, with heat, food, water, tunes and wicked loud, light, and the more the merrier. Ain't no body laffin at me then.
Not to sound like a GEICO commercial, but I’d personally love to learn “caveman skills.” If I were dropped off naked in the woods, I don’t think I’d make it during warm temperatures for more than a week or two, and I know that I'd perish within a month. I don’t know how to tan hides to make clothing. I’ve seen it done with primitive methods, but I lack proper knowledge and instruction of primitive survival skills. All of my knowledge revolves around simple modern tech. For example, I depend upon a store bought knife, cordage, and man-made articles of wool clothing as well as modern boots. My combustion devices are Ferro rods, magnesium rod, and a magnifying glass. I also have stainless steel 18/8 food grade containers. I do not know how to manufacture these devices out of things in nature. Oh, I’ve had a few instructions, and I’ve watched a lot of primitive skill videos, but I’ve never actually tried most of them, and of those that I have, I didn’t make out very well. For example, the other month, I got charged up on making fire with friction. I made everything I needed, but despite having the basic knowledge, I lacked the practical skill to apply this knowledge, so all I made was a little smell of wood rubbing against each other, no smoke, and a lot of mistakes.
This is my entire point behind the many people’s premise that people will flock to the Appalachians and survive. I could make it for as long as I could stand it, but I have a lot of simple technology at my side, and I know how to use it. The average person doesn’t even have this, so I feel that they won’t make it. Dehydration and waterborne illness will kill them within the first week. If they’re lucky to make it a week, I doubt that most will make it a month. With the boon of plunder in the valleys below, why would people trek into the mountains when there are supplies to be had down below? As an example, look up Hurricane Irene images. Note how all the stores shelves are picked dry. Providing that the weather is warm enough, water is key to survival. People will run out of potable water long before the food supply is depleted. Hence, it’s my opinion that most people will not survive the first month of an economic meltdown. Those that do survive will be privy to a potable water supply, or they’ll know how to purify their own water on the fly. These people will have a lot of canned and dry food reserves at their disposal, so I don’t see them going up into rugged terrain to “hunt.” Moreover, the mountains have less critters per square mile than the patches of woods that surround most farms. Farms and suburbs dotted with wooded lots are ideal Eastern Whitetail grounds. The mountains provide significantly less food for deer.
I’ve never heard of this deforestation and hunting white tail into extinction during the Great Depression in the Appalachian Mountains. I have seen a lot of late 1800s/early 1900s photos of denuded Appalachians, but this was from commercial logging. I’ve also read about Whitetails being hunted to near extinction during the 1800s, but by the 1900s, this was brought under control. All one has to do is look at the deer harvests from the 1930s. Due to the deforestation in parts of the Appalachians, the perfect deer production facility was made. Deer populations soared during the 1930s, the deer harvest jibes with this, so I do not believe that Depression era people went out and hunted deer into extinction in the Appalachians. According to what I’ve read, this actually happened a century before and there was no depression.
http://mdagnrpolicy.arec.umd.edu/Conferences/Deer-Management-in-Maryland/images/Figure1.gif (broken link) *Note that the deer population exploded during The Great Depression.
I found this chart here, Ecosystem Damage (http://mdagnrpolicy.arec.umd.edu/Conferences/Deer-Management-in-Maryland/decalesta.htm - broken link) after a quick search. I’m sure it’s an easy enough topic to find information on, but it’s not my idea to debate Depression era deer herd populations.
Back to the topic: Both Mac_Muz and MTSilvertip have both pointed out that surviving in the Appalachians is beyond what the average person is capable of. I’m in agreement with them based on what I know of everyday people. I also feel that the average person has become so accustomed to modern life that primitive living in the mountains without TV, I-Phones, and computers would simply depress them. They’d hit a wall, shut down, and eventually die because nobody would take care of them. I feel that they’re incapable of living without modern “comforts.” With this last bit, I could well be wrong, but they still lack basic survival skills and kits. Hence, Mother Nature will quickly sort them out if they attempt to live in the Appalachians.
While all this is good and fun to chat and think about, the only thing that baffles me is what to do after spending a safe period in the mountains. How many communities will be worth trying to assimilate into? Anybody with common sense and basic survival skills will know how to stalk, recon, and safely make contact with a community that’s survived, but will they have ridiculous rules the like of mandatory Christian worship? Will it be ruled by somebody like Jim Jones, David Koresh, or some zealot that thinks he’s a profit of God, and he’s got a harem of women that are all about to bear his children? It’s the post holocaust that scares me more. I personally know that I could not live more than a few months in the woods. Sooner or later, my clothing and boots will wear out. Moreover, I’m with a group of three, including myself. How long will we be able to tolerate each other? While I don’t care about women anymore, my two younger friends are still in their prime…
As I typed up this topic, I wonder how many other survivalist will take to the woods. Will they band together to form a small hunter/gather community, and lastly, what sort of communities will there be to assimilate into? I’ve often wondered if there will be small marauding types on horseback similar to “The Postman.”
Of course we could debate this seven ways from Sunday because nobody can accurately predict the future. Moreover, people always survive, albeit the lion’s share may perish, but there will always be survivors. I feel that it’s a rather interesting topic that appeals to many people due to our basic survival instincts.
If you’ve read this far, thank you. I know my posts are rather wordy. The strange bit is that I’m not a verbose person in real life… I simply enjoy Internet debates.
Bolillo, want lessons say the word. This is stuffed hard up between my ears. Low dollar skills. Silvertips has far more resources than I do, but is a woodsman of many skills I have learned he has just the same.
In shtf he won't be reduced to my level of living, but then I don't mind my level of living.
Probably if you want these skills you should set up a post. Other wise i will look the braggert, and a fool to most other people.
All of these skills were something I had to learn one mistake at a time
I can go naked with nothing in any of 3 seasons, and do ok. Winter in NH would kill me to fast, long before i could be dressed.
With wood or stone tools you can do the same things as you can with modern tools but the time is the factor. Everything the old ways takes more time.
As I see it your posts are no more wordy than mine. It's fine by me.
If we get to making mocs, you will want cheap cloth for the first pattern, no sence in wrecking good deer hide, then when you progress to a first leather pair I suggest goat hide.
Wearing mocs means you learn to walk another way too. No careless stepping, no skuffing your feet. It is said wearing mocs is just a decent way of gong barefoot.
The best way to learn primitive skills are to try them and learn how to do it before you need them.
There are a hundred ways to make fire, find the way to do it that works best for you.
Personally I like the fire drill. Not only can you start a fire, but with a knapped stone point, you have a drill for wood, an awl for bone, or you can use hard stone in a round point and make stone vessels. It does require cordage of some kind, but the mechanical force and speed are greater so you generate your heat faster. One trick to starting a friction fire is to make a notch in your base plate for the dust to gather and catch a spark. If you don't have a notch, the dust will go around the drill stem and it will take a long time to make enough dust to catch and hold a spark.
If you have trouble with the fire drill, try the fire plow, or a parabolic reflector, (can be as simple as a polished pop can bottom). In long term survival, flint and steel or any source of sparks can start a fire, but the main thing you need to think about is the fact that matches, ferro rods, magnisium sticks will eventually wear out. you have to have a means of starting fire that will always be there.
Maybe you could try a fire plunger to start. They are fairly easy to make, are light, and it takes a long time for one to wear out. The manufactured ones you buy use vasaline or some other manufactured lubricant, but animal fat works just as well to keep your seal and prevent the plunger from sticking. They work by superheating compressed air to ignite a small piece of punk.
Learn the difference between tinder and Kindling, and know how to stack your fire bundle for the best chance of catching the flame once you create a spark.
The best weapons you have for survival are your brains and your will. Once you learn how to do something, the knowledge is yours to keep and use when you need it. Willpower will keep you going when the weaker mind will stop and die.
Mac and I aren't any smarter or more talented than anybody else, Better looking...Maybe , but primitive skills are not that hard to master, they just take practice and a willingness to adapt what you have to accomplish your goal, and the ability to adapt to what resources you have on hand.
Learning several ways to start a fire increase your chances of survival as you may not have the materials for your favorite way to do it, so you have to use what you have so learning multiple means of fire starting increase your chance of living.
There are quite a few folks out there who could do pretty well with a survival pack, at least until it ran out, and that is where real survival comes in, Making do with what you can find or make yourself.
If you are looking for tutoring in primitive skills, I am sure that Mac or I or several others on this board could give you some pointers. I learned by trial and error and it took a while to master, but if someone can answer questions that come up so you don't have to figure out how to make a wheel again, it saves you a lot of time and effort.
I will say the first time I was able to make my own bow and arrows, and actually get a meal with them, and then cook it on a fire I made myself without matches, well, that was a very satisfying day for me all around. (could have used some salt and hot sauce though )
Once you get one skill, it contributes to others as the same type of skillset will come in for making more complex tools.
Learn to knap stone, you have axes, knives, scrapers, arrow and spear points. Then you can work wood into spears, bows, arrows, traps, spoons and bowls.
Learn to make cordage and you have bowstrings, rope, shelter, the ability to haul heavier loads, sewing thread, fishing line, etc etc etc.
Primitive man didn't need a lot of resorces because everything he made had multiple uses.
As to civilization after a economic disaster, remember when Rome fell it started the period known as the Dark Ages and it took several hundred years for Europe to recover.
I doubt in the event of the United States having a disaster like an economic meltdown that it would take that long to recover, Americans are pretty resourceful and driven to excel, and I have no doubt they would put things back together relatively quickly in a historical sense. It could take 50 or a hundred years, and the new civilization would probably look a lot like the old west frontier, but it would happen.
But as my old granny used to say, you hope for the best, prepare for the worst and don't borrow trouble because your full share is always out there waiting for you.
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