Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Self-Sufficiency and Preparedness
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-29-2011, 11:26 AM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,139 posts, read 22,705,438 times
Reputation: 14115

Advertisements

Muzzloader season has started here in Utah and I spent yesterday roaming the hills by my house on "pre-hunt hunt" while waiting for the weeked to come and our actual organized hunt with friends in our already scouted area. I'm shooting a semi-custom flintlock longrifle; this is the first time I've tried to hunt with a rock-lock, and I've been learning/practicing with it all summer.

Anyways, it's got me thinking about how this type of gun may be the ONLY firearm that you could (at least theoretically) maintain and shoot in a world without industrial civilization. Absent global thermonuclear war or movie-style zombie apocalypse I don't think civilization will totally collapse, BTW, but let's consider how our guns would fare in such a scenario, just for $h!*s and giggles...

The problem with modern cartridge firearms is that once the ammo is gone, your gun is just a pretty wall hanging or rather inefficient club.

It's just not possible to make smokeless powder without industrial civilization; it takes factories, chemists, supply lines, ect (the same goes for muzzleloader percussion caps, BTW). Ignition for a flintlock on the other had is a knapped rock and black powder. It doesn't get any more K.I.S.S. than that!

The same goes with building modern cartridge firearms; you need special steels, complicated parts/machinining and so forth to deal with the high pressures created by smokeless powder.

The parts for flintlock rifle on the other hand can be made completely by hand by a competent blacksmith, and broken parts can be easily repaired/made by hand.

The bullets themselves are easy-to-cast roundballs too; it would be impossible to cast copper jacketed bullets over a campfire and patched roundballs don't leave lead residue in barrel either; essentially offering the same benefit for the gun itself as copper jacketed ammo. Likewise, it would be practially impossible to make brass cartridges without a factory; you can reload them, but a casing still only lasts so long before it's worthless. Obviously, a muzzleloader solves that problem too.

The powder itself can be locally produced on a small scale with naturally found ingredients (though admittedly not over your campfire in the woods ). It wouldn't require modern industrial manufacturing though, that's for sure.


Also, muzzleloaders don't require chemical solvents to clean and maintain; hot soapy water and naturally sourced oils do the job just as well.

Sure it doesn't give you the range and firepower of a modern centerfire rifle, but a flint gun WOULD keep you shooting essentially forever, and it's still superior technology over the bow or crossbow.

I'm finding it's an acquired skill to shoot flintlocks, but it seems that once you know WTF you are doing, these guns can be very reliable and accurate.

It's something to think about anyway. Perhaps becoming proficient with flintlock muzzleloaders should be on the survivalist agenda too...

Last edited by Chango; 09-29-2011 at 11:54 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-29-2011, 11:59 AM
 
Location: Backwoods of Maine
7,485 posts, read 10,427,882 times
Reputation: 21455
I'll agree with you that those things can be mighty fun to shoot! A few times a year at the club, we all get a treat and use them exclusively for the day. Sometimes we have guys into re-enactment come in to demonstrate all manner of "old ways" of doing things that we take for granted today. As I said... a whole lotta FUN!

However, if TSHTF, I would not want to be the guy with the muzzleloader up against somebody with modern firearms. While all that you have pointed out is true (to my rather limited knowledge of the subject), there is a lot to be said for keeping one's modern arms and stashing LOTS of ammo, kept dry and packed safely away in ammo cans. I've heard of guys with thousands of rounds of every caliber they use (plus some they don't, for barter). That gets into a good deal of cash, so it might behoove people to stick with 2-3 calibers at most, for the guns they intend to use a lot.

As for other stuff, I buy Hoppe's No. 9 and Rem Oil by the quart, clean patches by the thousands, and brushes by the dozens. That's the cheap stuff! I keep sufficient ammo on hand to keep all my guns operational for several years, if ammo was to go scarce on me. And while I always enjoy playing with anything that goes "bang!", I think I'll stick with modern arms for family protection!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-29-2011, 12:35 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,139 posts, read 22,705,438 times
Reputation: 14115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nor'Eastah View Post
I'll agree with you that those things can be mighty fun to shoot! A few times a year at the club, we all get a treat and use them exclusively for the day. Sometimes we have guys into re-enactment come in to demonstrate all manner of "old ways" of doing things that we take for granted today. As I said... a whole lotta FUN!

However, if TSHTF, I would not want to be the guy with the muzzleloader up against somebody with modern firearms. While all that you have pointed out is true (to my rather limited knowledge of the subject), there is a lot to be said for keeping one's modern arms and stashing LOTS of ammo, kept dry and packed safely away in ammo cans. I've heard of guys with thousands of rounds of every caliber they use (plus some they don't, for barter). That gets into a good deal of cash, so it might behoove people to stick with 2-3 calibers at most, for the guns they intend to use a lot.

As for other stuff, I buy Hoppe's No. 9 and Rem Oil by the quart, clean patches by the thousands, and brushes by the dozens. That's the cheap stuff! I keep sufficient ammo on hand to keep all my guns operational for several years, if ammo was to go scarce on me. And while I always enjoy playing with anything that goes "bang!", I think I'll stick with modern arms for family protection!
Oh I agree! I would never go for my longrifle in a tight spot when the AR is sitting right next to it in the gunsafe. But if my AR was permanently empty and/or broken, I'd reach for the longrifle before I went to my last-ditch weapon (a folded-steel katana. )

No matter how much we hoard, the fact remains that modern firearms are not ultimately sustainable without the modern industrial civilization that created them. It's a humbling thought, really... and a good feeling to know there are plenty of options still open in case a VERY big "what if" did happen and I lived to see it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-29-2011, 12:48 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,139 posts, read 22,705,438 times
Reputation: 14115
Plus, if someone truly wanted to go 100% off-grid in the real world and personal defense (against other people) was not high priority, but the ability to hunt was... a flintlock gun would fit the bill quite nicely. It seems such a gun would be worth more than just as a toy or reenactment prop for practical purposes, in other words.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-29-2011, 03:08 PM
 
5,730 posts, read 10,086,064 times
Reputation: 8050
Lets say you'll spend $500 on setting up a good 'front stuffer' (Acessories needed)

That's over 15,000 rounds of .22


That's a lot of shooting, and a semi or bolt .22 I'd say would be a better choice!

ETA: For the record I have several BP rifles and pistols, but they are toys.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-29-2011, 04:10 PM
 
19,023 posts, read 25,861,818 times
Reputation: 7365
Chango you sold me........ But lets rehash what easy is, untill you make a lock yourself. You can spend a good bit of time building the parts to a lock, and then tuning them up to run fast, like upside down fast. A good lock is the key to the whole gun.

A plan I have, 'IF' I need a plan at all, is to hunt with the flinter and save on commercial rnds. I have a AK underfolder that i could fold up under a coat and go hunt with the flinter. If i see and get game with 1 shot, no one can figure out where that one shot came from if it is even heard in the first place. That counts a modern gun too. 1 shot makes finding the shooter very difficult, but I won't say it can't be done.

If it were shtf I would have my wife out on my back with my scoped .308, just incase. But the flinter would feed us any red wild meats. I own several.

I stopped using the term rock lock, since if you google that term it comes up as some sort of pot, that evil wildwoodsland weeds. I don't smoke that stuff, think it should be legal, but since it isn't, I want nothing to do with it. I have been shooting flinters since 1970, and have build a few from historical kits with and for friends, and built my .62 cal pistol from all shop scrap.

If you trip over a rifle in .62 as a poorboy, or a Jager I would like to know. I also have a Nor' West Gun in .62 and would like 3 guns that share the same ball. It would need a decent lock, like Chambers or Siler, Lott, or something like that.

Something modern guns can't do in smoothbore config is load Buck N' Ball. My Nor' West Gun can do that and so can my Brown Bess. It's a wicket mean load in the bess to shoot. You load aroun d 80 grains of FFg powder, then a wad/patched .735 rnd ball, then (9 ) .36 cal rnd ball,then another patched .735 rnd ball. That load will wake up the un-willing.

All flinters with a man that knows WTF, can run up a fire with 0 powder and still leave the gun loaded, of course pointing in a safe direction. With a bit of tallow and bees wax you can water proof the lock loaded as well.

Then because these guns require some tooling, you just have tooling in the shooting bag that you might not with any modern gun. Just to go shoot at a range means you will have these tools for sure, where you might not with modern guns.

I would not suggest that anyone go buy one at this time unless they were interested for grins and giggles, but if you already own them, there is no reason to not have some in terms of SHTF.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-29-2011, 04:40 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,139 posts, read 22,705,438 times
Reputation: 14115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Themanwithnoname View Post
Lets say you'll spend $500 on setting up a good 'front stuffer' (Acessories needed)

That's over 15,000 rounds of .22


That's a lot of shooting, and a semi or bolt .22 I'd say would be a better choice!

ETA: For the record I have several BP rifles and pistols, but they are toys.
Half the fun of muzzloading is making your accessories. I've made all mine except for the gun itself, the cleaning jag, mainspring vice and ball puller (but that was because I was lazy ).

But you're a bit off on the price; I think you'd better plan on paying at least $1,000 for a good flintlock.

And Mac_muz, I've seen you pics... I'm surprised you'd shoot anything else.


Look, I know 200+ year old firearms technology is inferior to modern firearms technology. Can anybody imagine a Ranger in Afghanistan sniping with a Hawken instead of a M14? Or cops ditching a 7 shot Remmington 870 for a single shot blunderbuss? OF COURSE NOT!!!!

But what would happen 30-40 years after a complete collapse of civilization, long after all the uneaten spam has gone rancid and all those thousands of rounds have been spent in defense of the spam? Even a huge stockpile is painfully finite and an awfully tempting target when such a stockpile contains something so valuable in a long-term life-or-death scenario. You can't live forever on a stockpile; it's only meant to (hopefully) see you through to better times.

Like I said, it's a BIG "what if", but the likelyhood of it happening is a lot better than being saved by aliens or jesus.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-29-2011, 05:02 PM
 
19,023 posts, read 25,861,818 times
Reputation: 7365
CXhango for a good many years apx 89' till 9 -11 i didn't shoot my modern guns at all. 9-11 was a wake up call to bust the dust off em... I would not be owning (3) Ak's now had 9-11 not happened, and maybe i would not if some woman in a red dress didn't come on Fox and say something like....

semi mis quote: "9-11 would never have happened if Americans were not allowed private gun ownership."

I went ballistic, levitated off the couch, grabbed my Bride by the hand and was in the local gun store at 4:45 Pm, and they closed at 5. I went home with my first Ak clone a SAR- 1.

I du sted off the other so called modern brass catridge shooters too, and took my Bride to try out the Ak the next day . That was a mistake . She gave me that look that says "THIS Mista' is all mine!"

I hope you never have to suffer that look. This ment I needed, and I mean needed another SAR-1, since I shoot lefty, and she does not. But on paper those 2 are mine. Since I got the same guns and the same Bride I figure it 's all mine

Then the yugo underfolder with the pig sticker came along in a boat deal, in the box with the claim it was un-fired. I still haven't got around to firing that one yet. But I bet it runs fine.

I got a Ruger Old Army that I don't belive is a toy. It sends a round ball a fair peice with some real authority. However it is a capper, and I don't have the abilty to make caps.

My little broom stick .40 is a sweetie, and gets to go many places the larger guns don't, for the sheer weight, or lack thereof. That one went all the way to Cal and back, incase we tripped over any lewis and clark doin's. The rnd ball remind me of peas.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-29-2011, 05:05 PM
 
19,023 posts, read 25,861,818 times
Reputation: 7365
Chango, just what gun is it you have anyway? Got a pic?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-29-2011, 05:55 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,139 posts, read 22,705,438 times
Reputation: 14115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac_Muz View Post
Chango, just what gun is it you have anyway? Got a pic?
I can post one when I get home, but it's a TVM late Lancaster pattern .50, built as a show gun, Matt Avance told me when I bought it 13 or so years ago.

I learned to shoot with muzzleloaders as a 14 year-old kid; my parents weren't gun people and wouldn't let me have a gun. Somehow I convinced them muzzleloaders were safer for kids (I'm still not sure how a kid with several pounds of black powder is safer than a kid with a .22, but hey... I turned out all right) and got a kit CVA Hawken. After that I got a Lyman Great Plains Rifle and shot the crap out of both until I was 18 and could buy "real" guns on my own.


After that, muzzleloading kinda fell by the wayside; I bought the longrifle in my 20's hoping to rekindle the magic I felt when I was a teenager, shot it a couple times and got frustrated with it before putting it away until I rediscovered it in the back of my gunsafe this year. Now the magic works! I can make it go boom and I can't put the thing down!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Self-Sufficiency and Preparedness
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top