U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Self-Sufficiency and Preparedness
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
 
Old 12-24-2011, 04:54 AM
 
Location: Prepperland
8,039 posts, read 4,390,580 times
Reputation: 3474

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
No economy has ever "collapsed."
I disagree.
We are in the middle of a collapse. The problem is that it has been going on for three generations. It's not dramatic enough to sting us to act out.

Snippets to illustrate the collapse:
[] America was once capable of manufacturing 99% of its necessities and luxuries. . . Shoes, clothing, electrical and electronics, machine tools, and so on. No longer true. Even our "Defense" industries are at the mercy of imported parts that may or may not function to spec.
[] General Aviation has been stagnant for decades, thanks to insane litigation.
[] Industries could afford to support training facilities as well as research facilities. (Ex: IBM once hosted a Machinist school that was so good, that other industries regularly sent their employees for training. It closed.)
[] Institutions of Education were once focused on education. Now, it's all based on selling credentials, with little regard for actual knowledge. Many students also require remedial studies to "catch up".
[] Instead of shame for accepting public charity, generations have become adamant in their demand for more. Which is the obvious result of rewarding non-producers and penalizing producers.

Other "little" problem : national debt, in excess of 15 trillion dollars, is not payable with "dollar bills". Dollar bills are IOUs (debt) and debt cannot pay debt. Minus plus minus = more minus.
The public debt, which cannot be questioned, pursuant to the 14th amendment, clause 4, USCON, computes to a sum of 750 billion ounces of gold, stamped into coin.
World supply (2008 est) is 5.2 billion ounces.
[D'oh !]

Finally, the one inescapable fact that illustrates collapse: Congress is borrowing MORE than it pays in debt service. In other words, it is paying the interest on OLD DEBT with new debtor's money... Since 2006 (or before - didn't check all the years).

That's what Bernie Madoff went to jail for doing.

We're toast, folks.

In the coming months and years, it will come to pass that what you cannot grow, find, make or locally trade for, you will do without. Money won't be of any use. International trade will have broken down. Transportation based on petroleum will be severely reduced.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-24-2011, 09:50 AM
 
Location: Florida
3,360 posts, read 3,488,691 times
Reputation: 1805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_Ryder View Post
Since communes have a long history of rapid and catastrophic failure, I'm not sure how they could possibly make sense "again". Cooperatives tend to work fairly well but communes are destined to fail because humans are social animals, not herd animals.
Nothings destined to fail...that's a self defeating attitude...
And is why many give up looking for jobs...

Humans are very resorceful, and can adapt and change...
A commune is nothing more than a group of 'friends'...if somethings not working...than you simply tweek, change and adapt...it's that simple...

That's why the underlying thing has to be friendship...cause like a marriage, it doesn't just end when the first hurdle comes up...

And as far as Americas decline...

it just fits into a larger formula of nature, of math...or that one simple song...'What goes up, must come down'...

This nation should of never gotten so big...

Doe you all think Canada divided their nation up in a better way?

Like by having 4-5 provinces...each soveriegn, yet united...in the end, will Canadas way proove more efficient?


I use to drive around this whole nation...



From the Northern most tip of WA State, to the Southern most tip of Miami...and all points inbetween...and I can tell you...

America is vast, and the populace inbetween those points are as varied as the stars...cultures, colors, languages, styles, ideologies ect ect...

And all these people, all of us, are some how tied together, forced together...but why?

When i drove through Wyoming...and would see some rural community...I would ask myself...

'Ok why are these people here in Wyoming, taking care of, or tied together with those in South Miami?'....

They have nothing in common, other than basic human traits, but other than basic human traits, they have nothing in common...so why are they tied together??

And then after every war, the government ships tens of 1000's of refugees or former allie gi's over here to settle...like the hmong of Wisconsin...which I read about on another thread on city data...

Basically I just think this nation is to big...and that in order to survive, we need to downsize into more managable regions...like Canada...



Do you see what I'm saying...
Maybe instead of 50 states that try to combine every type of person under the sun together...maybe this nation needs to re carve out territories to better fit how different segments have evolved since this nations inception...

I mean why should someone in Kansas, be responsible for taking care of someone in the Bronx, NY?...and or vice versa....

Why should someone in down town Detroit, have to take care of someone in Big Ben Oregon??

They have nothing in common what so ever...accept basic human traits...but as far as styles and habits, no....

If I were running for President, I would propose busting this giant albatross up a bit, and recarving territories, more effeciant territories...

And allow more like minded people to congregate in areas of their choosing...and not be responsible for others in difference regions...

But still maintaining a loose military alliance...or Federation...kind of like Canada...

Bottom line, we need to downsize this monster before it's to late...

On a whole different tip...

Hope everyone out there is having a good Christmas or holiday weekend, or whatever it is you celebrate and find peace by doing...


Last edited by Time and Space; 12-24-2011 at 10:19 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-24-2011, 09:53 AM
 
Location: southern california
50,263 posts, read 47,603,261 times
Reputation: 41666
swedish commune makes sense if u r swedish. highly homogenous people who know how to get along that is not a description of an american. selfish disrespectful zero empathy people (the ugly american) does not do well in a commune. the leaders are no daisy either, look at jonestown.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-24-2011, 10:08 AM
 
Location: Interior AK
4,728 posts, read 5,365,888 times
Reputation: 3210
The way our country is (was) set up works perfectly fine... or would if we were actually still operating it in the way it was designed. It was originally set up so that each state (and each township and county within the states) took care of it's own business, and the federal government only had jurisdiction over things between states (and usually only if there was an unresolvable problem) or that affected the entire country. Unfortunately, for a multitude of reasons and through many cumulative "unnoticeable" changes here and there, the federal government and its agencies now have WAY more power than they were supposed to have and are completely exceeding their jurisdiction.

We were designed to be a Union of States -- each State being mostly sovereign unto itself -- much like the Canadian Provinces and Territories. It was never the intention of our Founding Fathers to have a central national government with all the power over disparate regions... in fact, that was what they were trying NOT to have, because they'd seen it's abuse and failure all over Europe.
__________________
My mod posts will always be in red.
The Rules Infractions & Deletions Who's the moderator? FAQ What is a "Personal Attack" What is "Trolling" Guidelines for copyrighted material.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-24-2011, 11:11 AM
 
4,134 posts, read 2,825,012 times
Reputation: 1588
Quote:
Originally Posted by Time and Space View Post
Nothings destined to fail...that's a self defeating attitude...
And is why many give up looking for jobs...

Humans are very resorceful, and can adapt and change...
A commune is nothing more than a group of 'friends'...if somethings not working...than you simply tweek, change and adapt...it's that simple...

That's why the underlying thing has to be friendship...cause like a marriage, it doesn't just end when the first hurdle comes up...

And as far as Americas decline...

it just fits into a larger formula of nature, of math...or that one simple song...'What goes up, must come down'...

This nation should of never gotten so big...

Doe you all think Canada divided their nation up in a better way?

Like by having 4-5 provinces...each soveriegn, yet united...in the end, will Canadas way proove more efficient?


I use to drive around this whole nation...



From the Northern most tip of WA State, to the Southern most tip of Miami...and all points inbetween...and I can tell you...

America is vast, and the populace inbetween those points are as varied as the stars...cultures, colors, languages, styles, ideologies ect ect...

And all these people, all of us, are some how tied together, forced together...but why?

When i drove through Wyoming...and would see some rural community...I would ask myself...

'Ok why are these people here in Wyoming, taking care of, or tied together with those in South Miami?'....

They have nothing in common, other than basic human traits, but other than basic human traits, they have nothing in common...so why are they tied together??

And then after every war, the government ships tens of 1000's of refugees or former allie gi's over here to settle...like the hmong of Wisconsin...which I read about on another thread on city data...

Basically I just think this nation is to big...and that in order to survive, we need to downsize into more managable regions...like Canada...



Do you see what I'm saying...
Maybe instead of 50 states that try to combine every type of person under the sun together...maybe this nation needs to re carve out territories to better fit how different segments have evolved since this nations inception...

I mean why should someone in Kansas, be responsible for taking care of someone in the Bronx, NY?...and or vice versa....

Why should someone in down town Detroit, have to take care of someone in Big Ben Oregon??

They have nothing in common what so ever...accept basic human traits...but as far as styles and habits, no....

If I were running for President, I would propose busting this giant albatross up a bit, and recarving territories, more effeciant territories...

And allow more like minded people to congregate in areas of their choosing...and not be responsible for others in difference regions...

But still maintaining a loose military alliance...or Federation...kind of like Canada...

Bottom line, we need to downsize this monster before it's to late...

On a whole different tip...

Hope everyone out there is having a good Christmas or holiday weekend, or whatever it is you celebrate and find peace by doing...
Very inspiring. I'm not sure how you conclude realism is defeatist. I mean it would be great if a pet goose were to lay golden eggs but staking your survival on that hope would be stupid. Instead of believing in golden eggs, wouldn't it be more prudent to form a community (a commune and a community are NOT the same thing btw) based on reality where goose eggs are less shiny but edible?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-24-2011, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Florida
3,360 posts, read 3,488,691 times
Reputation: 1805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_Ryder View Post
Very inspiring. I'm not sure how you conclude realism is defeatist. I mean it would be great if a pet goose were to lay golden eggs but staking your survival on that hope would be stupid. Instead of believing in golden eggs, wouldn't it be more prudent to form a community (a commune and a community are NOT the same thing btw) based on reality where goose eggs are less shiny but edible?
All I'm saying is 'commune' just sounds like a cold dry situation where you throw a bunk of strangers together and expect them to work things out...

Like that reality show 'House' on Mtv...



Ok, putting a commune together would not be some quick, publicity stunt Mtv type of occurance...

It would be well thought out, lots of pre-meetings'...maybe a few weekends out, to get to know one another, like a date almost...you gotta get to know those your going to be living around, build some chemistry...

Can't just throw a bunch of strangers together on some 1960's template of a commune with people dancing around the campfire naked and smoking hashies...ok...i realize that...times have changed...maybe some wish they hadn't, but they have...

I think the 60's was a very unique decade, era, that can never be replicated...

Good or bad, right or wrong, the 60's was authentic...

And those hippies who settled up there above Denver in those vacant hills, are now multi-millionares...little did they know the land they purchased for so cheap would later form the foundation of Vale, and other hot spots for the rich and famous...

Flexibility, is the main ingrediant to any successful orginization, whether a corporation or commune...

Commune, is just like saying car....once you agree to get a car, then you can decide, ok do we want a Porchse, or a Hummer or a Pinto....

But first and foremost, the main thing is establishing friendships...cause friendships don't dissolve...communes may, but friendships don't...at least theoretically...

Once you get the 'chemistry'...all the other stuff can be worked out...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-24-2011, 04:22 PM
 
4,134 posts, read 2,825,012 times
Reputation: 1588
Quote:
Originally Posted by Time and Space View Post
All I'm saying is 'commune' just sounds like a cold dry situation where you throw a bunk of strangers together and expect them to work things out...

Like that reality show 'House' on Mtv...



Ok, putting a commune together would not be some quick, publicity stunt Mtv type of occurance...

It would be well thought out, lots of pre-meetings'...maybe a few weekends out, to get to know one another, like a date almost...you gotta get to know those your going to be living around, build some chemistry...

Can't just throw a bunch of strangers together on some 1960's template of a commune with people dancing around the campfire naked and smoking hashies...ok...i realize that...times have changed...maybe some wish they hadn't, but they have...

I think the 60's was a very unique decade, era, that can never be replicated...

Good or bad, right or wrong, the 60's was authentic...

And those hippies who settled up there above Denver in those vacant hills, are now multi-millionares...little did they know the land they purchased for so cheap would later form the foundation of Vale, and other hot spots for the rich and famous...

Flexibility, is the main ingrediant to any successful orginization, whether a corporation or commune...

Commune, is just like saying car....once you agree to get a car, then you can decide, ok do we want a Porchse, or a Hummer or a Pinto....

But first and foremost, the main thing is establishing friendships...cause friendships don't dissolve...communes may, but friendships don't...at least theoretically...

Once you get the 'chemistry'...all the other stuff can be worked out...
Sorry but the 1960s was an incredibly successful ad campaign. I suspect you are very young and enamored with the 60s of legend that never actually existed in real life. If not, you are a grey-hair that toasted too many brain cells to have a realistic memory of that time. No hippy commune succeeded. Not a single one. Communes and collectives fail except in the case of insects and herd animals. In those collectives, there is no room for mercy or compassion. The weak are left to die or are simply eaten by the collective. Does a commune sound really yummy now? Humans are not ants. Even sheeple will at some point get aggravated and show their fangs.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-24-2011, 05:23 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
8,039 posts, read 4,390,580 times
Reputation: 3474
Quote:
Originally Posted by Time and Space View Post
Doe you all think Canada divided their nation up in a better way?

Like by having 4-5 provinces...each soveriegn, yet united...in the end, will Canadas way proove more efficient?
...
Basically I just think this nation is to big...and that in order to survive, we need to downsize into more managable regions...like Canada...
Comparisons with Canada are not apples to apples.
Canada is a subject nation, not sovereign. Queen Elizabeth II is still their monarch. {In the movie,"Fly Away Home", the Canadian game warden tells the class, "These are the QUEEN'S geese."}

Just over three quarters of the Canada pop. lives within 90 miles of the U.S. Border.
Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_percentage_of_Canada_population_lives_along_t he_U.S_border#ixzz1hUq01sd4


Canada is more dependent upon the USA than the USA is dependent upon Canada.

The observation that American governments (both Federal and State) are acting a wee bit outside of their original delegation of power is still based on consent - whether the American people realize it or not.

However, dismembering the union would not help anyone except predators who would benefit.

In unity, is strength.
In disunity, is destruction.

Someone wants the U.S.A. to become further divided into ethnic / religious / philosophical / economic blocs, at odds with each other, and cease to be an effective union that secures the inalienable rights of the people from predation. The net result is capitulation to whoever gains ascendancy after the bloody, messy civil war that will erupt after sufficient provocations are perpetrated.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-24-2011, 06:29 PM
 
Location: Florida
3,360 posts, read 3,488,691 times
Reputation: 1805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_Ryder View Post
Sorry but the 1960s was an incredibly successful ad campaign. I suspect you are very young and enamored with the 60s of legend that never actually existed in real life. If not, you are a grey-hair that toasted too many brain cells to have a realistic memory of that time. No hippy commune succeeded. Not a single one. Communes and collectives fail except in the case of insects and herd animals. In those collectives, there is no room for mercy or compassion. The weak are left to die or are simply eaten by the collective. Does a commune sound really yummy now? Humans are not ants. Even sheeple will at some point get aggravated and show their fangs.

Join an Eco-Community in Belize, Central America - YouTube

I guess some people are calling them 'eco-communities' now...

But I'm not sure I'm ready to dwell that deep in the jungle...
For one, I don't like giant misqutoes...and I'm sure in the S-American jungle there's plenty of misquitoes and gigantic spiders...
Can't tolerate spiders either...so no, I could never join this group here...to primitave...not trying to go back to my ancestry days...



Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
Comparisons with Canada are not apples to apples.
Canada is a subject nation, not sovereign. Queen Elizabeth II is still their monarch. {In the movie,"Fly Away Home", the Canadian game warden tells the class, "These are the QUEEN'S geese."}

Just over three quarters of the Canada pop. lives within 90 miles of the U.S. Border.
Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_percentage_of_Canada_population_lives_along_t he_U.S_border#ixzz1hUq01sd4


Canada is more dependent upon the USA than the USA is dependent upon Canada.

The observation that American governments (both Federal and State) are acting a wee bit outside of their original delegation of power is still based on consent - whether the American people realize it or not.

However, dismembering the union would not help anyone except predators who would benefit.

In unity, is strength.
In disunity, is destruction.

Someone wants the U.S.A. to become further divided into ethnic / religious / philosophical / economic blocs, at odds with each other, and cease to be an effective union that secures the inalienable rights of the people from predation. The net result is capitulation to whoever gains ascendancy after the bloody, messy civil war that will erupt after sufficient provocations are perpetrated.

Mystery word: Capitulation....?

Seems like everything replicates everything else...like a pattern...

For instance...you look under a microscope at a cell, and it eventually divides...splits, and forms a new cell...

Is it so with human societies as well...

Can the seperation be congenial?, peaceful?, willful?

It just almost seems this country is to large and diverse for one single President to be able to represent all anymore...

At best, seems any one President can do is represent around 30-40% of the populace, if that...

So why not give people what they want?

If all Dems think they're right, give them a portion of the country to run as they see fit, if all Rep think they're right, give them a corner...and so forth...

Aithiest can have a province, Christians another...

I don't know...it just seems no one gets along anymore anyways...
Maybe if you better explain to me what 'caputilation' means, I could put together a better response...

But that word through me off...

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-24-2011, 07:05 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
10,209 posts, read 7,741,362 times
Reputation: 8546
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
Great points you make here. It's sad that many folks out there do not understand this simple truth you have pointed out. Many people (especially if they are highly extroverted) think that everyone requires constant interaction with others and if they don't, they are somehow defective. It's simply not true. And it's also simply not true that all those who prefer isolation cannot interact with others. Most can just fine. It's just that they highly PREFER seclusion. From conversations and dialog I've had with others over the years, I've come to realize that it's nearly impossible to convey this idea and expect any level of real understanding at all. We introverts may as well be talking to them in Kalaallisut.
I live alone except for a herd of cats and a couple dogs. I go to the store to get as much as I can, since that minimizes the trips. I am perfectly happy having a conversation with my dog over someone who is boring. Someone started a thread on CD about introverts and it got moved to Mental Health, as its a disease.

I would love to be out of the 'society' with like minds, because I don't know if I could do it all myself. But I don't know how long I could stand the personal noise of too many people too close. One of the things I love about where I moved is that the population is low, and there are stores close, but if I want to be alone nobody bothers me. I remember getting out of socal and just feeling all the busy energy vanish.

No, the socially inclined just don't get it and never will. They need people for the personal validation. Someone who doesn't might as well be from Mars.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $84,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Self-Sufficiency and Preparedness
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top