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Old 10-19-2011, 08:14 PM
 
Location: Alaska
2,248 posts, read 1,437,399 times
Reputation: 2023

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SifuPhil, there's one point I'd like to make about the entire content of your postings on symbiosis, and mans "unnatural" behaviors.

You've got a huge assumption in there, that mans behavior is unnatural. This assumes that nature has a plan, and that we're acting contrary to that plan, there's no evidence that this is the case. Similarly Darwinistically you cannot argue that extinction of certain species or expansion of others due to the influence of man, is removing them from the evolutionary chain by unnatural events or even that they are removed from the evolutionary chain at all. Man came into being by a series of natural events, and remains on this earth due to the skills and abilities he is naturally imbued with. It's just as evolutionarily valid to claim that the extinction of the dodo ran counter to the "natural order", as it is to argue it ran with the natural order, again it assumes a plan, and that we're altering that plan.

If we consider nature to have a plan, we must consider nature to have some form of conscious, that heads of into the realms of philosophy and metaphysics. The converse is that nature is a chaotic system, therefore any of the actors within that system cannot be acting counter to that systems plan, since there is none.

Anything else on this matter is pure egotistical supposition in that we HAVE the ability to affect nature in a way that was either intended or unintended, whether we head into philosophy and metaphysics, or chaos theory, there is no evidence that we are affecting nature in a way that is unintended, since we have no evidence of intent, or even any evidence that there may be an intent.
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Old 10-19-2011, 09:36 PM
 
Location: Tejas
1,816 posts, read 1,761,296 times
Reputation: 1623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
SifuPhil, there's one point I'd like to make about the entire content of your postings on symbiosis, and mans "unnatural" behaviors.

You've got a huge assumption in there, that mans behavior is unnatural. This assumes that nature has a plan, and that we're acting contrary to that plan, there's no evidence that this is the case. Similarly Darwinistically you cannot argue that extinction of certain species or expansion of others due to the influence of man, is removing them from the evolutionary chain by unnatural events or even that they are removed from the evolutionary chain at all. Man came into being by a series of natural events, and remains on this earth due to the skills and abilities he is naturally imbued with. It's just as evolutionarily valid to claim that the extinction of the dodo ran counter to the "natural order", as it is to argue it ran with the natural order, again it assumes a plan, and that we're altering that plan.

If we consider nature to have a plan, we must consider nature to have some form of conscious, that heads of into the realms of philosophy and metaphysics. The converse is that nature is a chaotic system, therefore any of the actors within that system cannot be acting counter to that systems plan, since there is none.

Anything else on this matter is pure egotistical supposition in that we HAVE the ability to affect nature in a way that was either intended or unintended, whether we head into philosophy and metaphysics, or chaos theory, there is no evidence that we are affecting nature in a way that is unintended, since we have no evidence of intent, or even any evidence that there may be an intent.
Biggest mistake people in general make is that they assume humanity is not subject to laws of physics or Mother Nature. We can multiply, destroy and expand but when the tipping point of unsustainability arrives, when the available resources become unavailable or spent, we will be subject to a basic law and "it ain't gonna be pretty"
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Old 10-19-2011, 10:40 PM
 
Location: Florida
3,360 posts, read 3,428,060 times
Reputation: 1802
Quote:
Originally Posted by SifuPhil View Post
So because I see the world through eyes that have been taught to truly see the "big picture", that makes me a misanthrope? Just because I don't put Man above the animals?

Or does it merely ascertain that your first sentence was correct?

Hypocritical? Not at all. I don't hide my true feelings at any time. What would be the point?
In your response to 'Man above the animals' statement...It's so sad to hear about that guy who released all those exotic animals in Ohio, which are now being hunted down and destroyed...so sad...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aptor hours View Post
Good luck with your castle it does sound like fun! I also like to go to an afternoon movie and drink lattes and not work all that much so I can kind of understand where you are coming from. Work on the spelling though in one of your spare rooms
In response to your 'good luck with your castle' comment...check this out...

Take your average apartment complex...say there's 40 units at $700.00 average rent per month...

$700.00 X 40 = $28,000 a month that goes to the owner of the property...$28,000 X 12 = $336,000 a year....

Now, what if those people, instead of giving all their money to one owner, where he/she gains, and they loose out on $8400.00 a year...what if they instead put their combined incomes on buying the place themselves (thus paying it off, thus ending their rent payments forever)....or collectively buying a castle or mansion and living in it, instead of the apartment...



The landlord (and banks) benifits off of them all thinking as induvisuals...thus the landlord maintanes the wealth, power and control...

But if those 40 people living in that 40 unit apartment ever thought to pool their resorces...in one month they could buy the apartment complex, and expell the landlord...

Whether landlord or Government...do you see how the powerful benifit when we the citizentry think and operate as tiny induvisuals??

Last edited by Time and Space; 10-19-2011 at 10:50 PM..
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Old 10-19-2011, 10:51 PM
 
1,337 posts, read 416,220 times
Reputation: 656
Quote:
Originally Posted by Time and Space View Post
It's so sad to hear about that guy who released all those exotic animals in Ohio, which are now being hunted down and destroyed.
I read about that this morning. I thought that was rather dickish of the authorities. It seemed to me that they were more interested in simply solving the problem the lazy mans way: "shoot first and ask question later," or don't even bother to ask questions at all, just shoot the animals on sight.
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Old 10-19-2011, 10:57 PM
 
373 posts, read 307,697 times
Reputation: 230
Default There may be more hidden

Quote:
Originally Posted by FreedomThroughAnarchism View Post
I read about that this morning. I thought that was rather dickish of the authorities. It seemed to me that they were more interested in simply solving the problem the lazy mans way: "shoot first and ask question later," or don't even bother to ask questions at all, just shoot the animals on sight.
SHooting the animals was vicious and largely needless.

What made the man kill himself? What or who was after him that made him snap? I suspect government officials but am not aware of any evidence at this point.
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Old 10-19-2011, 11:03 PM
 
Location: Interior AK
4,728 posts, read 5,304,783 times
Reputation: 3210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Time and Space View Post
Take your average apartment complex...say there's 40 units at $700.00 average rent per month...

$700.00 X 40 = $28,000 a month that goes to the owner of the property...$28,000 X 12 = $336,000 a year....

Now, what if those people, instead of giving all their money to one owner, where he/she gains, and they loose out on $8400.00 a year...what if they instead put their combined incomes on buying the place themselves (thus paying it off, thus ending their rent payments forever)....or collectively buying a castle or mansion and living in it, instead of the apartment...

The landlord (and banks) benefits off of them all thinking as individuals...thus the landlord maintians the wealth, power and control...

But if those 40 people living in that 40 unit apartment ever thought to pool their resources...in one month they could buy the apartment complex, and expel the landlord...

Whether landlord or Government...do you see how the powerful benefit when we the citizenry think and operate as tiny individuals??
This is commonly be referred to as a condominium

You still aren't going to get a 40 unit apartment complex for $336k unless it's rundown, in an extremely bad neighborhood, or has been foreclosed on for some reason. Basic valuation for income properties is at least Rent x 3 and usually closer to Rent x 5. So your tenants are looking at paying rent AND saving "rent" for at least 3 years prior in order to buy out the owner (assuming they even want to sell); and upon purchase, would then assume all responsibility for the added costs of utilities, property taxes, and maintenance costs that were previously included in their rent. It may, or may not, end up being a win-win.
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Old 10-19-2011, 11:18 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles area
9,228 posts, read 7,120,155 times
Reputation: 16242
To the OP (Time and Space): Many posters have tried to tell you this using various excellent examples, but I'll be more blunt (and less wordy) - you are seriously disconnected from reality.

To all the others: What a wild ride this thread has been - I just read it in its entirety. The whole long debate about the relationship between humans and animals was fascinating as hell but was almost completely off-topic. A good example of natural and nearly inevitable thread drift. I am not objecting, just commenting.
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Old 10-19-2011, 11:33 PM
 
4,562 posts, read 4,104,001 times
Reputation: 5151
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreedomThroughAnarchism View Post
I read about that this morning. I thought that was rather dickish of the authorities. It seemed to me that they were more interested in simply solving the problem the lazy mans way: "shoot first and ask question later," or don't even bother to ask questions at all, just shoot the animals on sight.

Do YOU want Bengal Tigers, Wolves etc running around AFTER DARK?


Quote:
Originally Posted by 1957TabbyCat View Post
SHooting the animals was vicious and largely needless.

What made the man kill himself? What or who was after him that made him snap? I suspect government officials but am not aware of any evidence at this point.
See above, in the jungle we aren't the top of the food chain!
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Old 10-20-2011, 12:24 AM
 
Location: Nebraska
4,179 posts, read 5,694,341 times
Reputation: 9206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Themanwithnoname View Post
Do YOU want Bengal Tigers, Wolves etc running around AFTER DARK?




See above, in the jungle we aren't the top of the food chain!
TYVM, ManWNN!

It always cracks me up when folks pity the 'poor wld animals' but when parents in rural ID are escorting their chldren to bus stops with shotguns because of predatory wolves and even mountain lions in the area, it barely gets a mention - except for criticizing the parents for being fearful of nature.

Would the same thing happen in a city? Nah, they'll wait until some animal rolls a kindergartener at a bus stop - then criticize the authorities for not capturing the critter in a humane manner, and the parents for letting the kid stand at his bus stop instead of driving him safely to school.
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Old 10-20-2011, 12:30 AM
 
Location: Nebraska
4,179 posts, read 5,694,341 times
Reputation: 9206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
To the OP (Time and Space): Many posters have tried to tell you this using various excellent examples, but I'll be more blunt (and less wordy) - you are seriously disconnected from reality.
Sadly, I get the feeling that there are a lot of people like him out there. Not only disconnected, but totally ignorant that there is a reality. I've been hearing it more and more - "All that matters is your perception of reality - whatever you perceive reality to be, that is what it is!"

When talking about self-sufficiency or preparedness, this gross ignorance and self-satisfied faith in their starry-eyed perceptions could prove as fatal as a dinosaur's belief that, because he is big and strong and omniverous, he and his progeny will live forever...
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