Will your home be just another depot to raid?? (grain, soil, oil)

[JustSomeRandomPerson]

It was an interesting little read.

[BoxCar Willie]

Originally Posted by Mircea

You started out with a bang and ended with a whimper.

You are 100% correct in that "preppers" are doing nothing but wasting their money supplying others (hopefully those who kill the "preppers" won't pee on their dead bodies -- like it really matters since the "preppers": are dead anyway).

Where you failed is that no amount of OPSEC will alter the reality.

Now, understand that "prepping" is relative to Group Dynamics.

If you live in Eagle Grove, Iowa (population 3,712 at 2000 census; the largest city in Wright County) then by all means, please "prep" away to your heart's contentment.

Kind of smells like "Jericho" and "New Bern."

What is the Group Dynamic here? There is no anonymity. Everyone knows everyone (and everyone's business) and so you don't have to worry about thugs (although the 35,000 people in Fort Dodge roughly 40 miles away might pose a threat).

If you live in a larger urban area, then the Group Dynamic is total anonymity, and yes if you're thinking Mob Mentality then you're on the right track.

The fact that you live in suburbia will not alter the reality that in less than 4 hours, 10,000 screaming starving maniacs will be on your doorstep.

Where I live, there's 310,000+ in the city, and a total of 1 Million in the county, and when they start migrating in search of food, they will leave no stone unturned.

They will be searching house-to-house looking for food, clothing, anything they can use as a weapon (like kitchen knives), tools, or anything else of value.

"I will defend my home." No you will not. Stop houghing farts like an idiot.

Unless you have 8 shooters, you cannot defend all 360° of your home (or apartment).

Blind spots. Doh! I've seen thousands of homes with 1-2 car garages, and there is no window on the garage, or there is no window(s) on side of the house. That is a blind spot. Once someone gets to the perimeter, it's over.

3-5 Second Rush. Doh! You're going kill 20 people rushing directly at you in less than 5 seconds? No you are not, and once they are up against the perimeter, it is over.

Did you forget about things like depression/elevation? Yes, you most certainly did.

Oh, yes, like an idle school-boy, you barricaded the windows, boarding them up and left yourself "firing ports." Too bad for you that you totally forgot about depression/elevation, because once someone gets up to the wall next/under the window, you cannot see them or shoot them, and your life will end (and they will pee on your dead body -- like good marines).

Ever drive through some of the subdivisions? How much distance between one house and the next? Maybe 10 feet, maybe 60 feet.

Any of you fellas ever heard of a "ladder?"

Nope.

I throw up a ladder, climb up on the roof of one house with my people, then we take another ladder and lay it across to your roof and walk across and viola! We're on top of your house.

And you all thought you were smart. I guess you ain't all that.

And there's always fire. Don't underestimate people's intelligence. I know how to make anti-personnel hand grenades, napalm grenades, incendiary grenades, chemical (poison) grenades, smoke grenades, trip-flares etc, etc, etc. And I'm not the only one.

So defending your home is a total impossibility (unless you live in Eagle Grove, Iowa) and if you attempt to do so, the only thing that will happen is that you and your loved ones will die, probably horribly, get peed on, and then others will take all that you have, and your home ends up becoming a supply depot for others.

The only way you will survive is through collective security in a large group, that would have ideally at least 100 able-bodied shooters (who can also hump and run patrols).

In the first 30 days after "it" happens, you will be working feverishly day and night making mortars, mortar rounds, pipe bombs, hand grenades and constructing defensive positions, to take on "The Hoard" that will be coming after you shortly.

And you'll be burning down houses. Why? There's 16 houses in a cul-de-sac. Do I have the man power to take sledgehammers to those homes to get at the electrical wiring and plumbing? No, I don't. What a waste of time and energy. I can just burn down all 16 houses and then very easily get at the wiring and plumbing. And why do I need it? Mortars, mortar rounds, pipe bombs, sabot rounds, home-made recoiless rifles (like RPG-7, RPG-12, LAW, 90 mm) etc etc, and I need the wiring for trip wires for booby traps, trip-flares, etc etc, and for antennas for communications (many HAMs build their own radios using vacuum tubes -- those will survive EMP), plus I need the wire to construct a crude telegraph system for communicating with out-posts which will eventually morph into a crude field phone system, once we collect enough telephone parts.

Besides, if I burn down the houses, then they cannot be occupied by threat forces.

So prepping will get you absolutely nowhere, except dead. Prepping without a cogent survival plan is the same thing as planning to fail, which means being killed and peed on.

If you don't want the women in your life to be brutally raped and sodomized or used as sex slaves, then my advice is to dump the idiotic macho He-Man I'll-Defend-My-Castle nonsense and cowboy up with a survival group.

You can form a non-profit group, and then prep and have your supplies pre-positioned in a safe place that can be easily defended by a group of people.

This thread...

http://www.city-data.com/forum/22432674-post10.html

...gives some novice starter points on selecting an area that can be easily defended, and offers food sources.

It also touches briefly on using a county or State park or some other relatively safe place as a Rally Point for the people in your survival group. Everyone rallies there, and then armed security personnel from your survival group escort them safely to The Haven so that you can start the process of surviving, and then once all threats to your group are neutralized, you can start the process of rebuilding society, or at least rebuilding what's left of your lives.

Laughing at "preppers"...

Mircea

Originally Posted by Mircea

They'll find it.

You under-estimate the resourcefulness and cleverness of people, especially when they are severely stressed and challenged.

And what, 15 people living underground? I guess it never donned on you that NASA spends $Thousands conducting psychological tests on candidates for its programs, because the astronauts live in isolation, even if it is just for a few days. Your group won't be able to handle it, and they'll want to get out, and they'll give themselves and the others away.

You might want to read the studies on Biosphere I and Biosphere II. There, you had groups of less than a dozen people who were specially trained and selected to live underground in a self-contained environment, and they failed.

How is it that you'll succeed where they failed?

I'm not convinced you understand the nature of people, or the psychology of Armageddon.

Unconvinced...

Mircea



I'm not impressed with your macho manliness.

You might get off a few shots, but in the end, they'll back up, regroup, find a weakness, exploit it, and then they'll be peeing on your dead body.

Maybe you should invest in a wet-suit.

Not impressed...

Mircea

Sounds like YOU think you're Rambo. I think you're just another armchair comupter wannabe. [I wonder, HEY folks is Gunkid back out of the slammer yet?]

[SCGranny]

Originally Posted by BoxCar Willie

Sounds like YOU think you're Rambo. I think you're just another armchair comupter wannabe. [I wonder, HEY folks is Gunkid back out of the slammer yet?]

My thoughts exactly, BC Willie.

Someone who insists that they are on here to 'educate' people, and then roundly and repetitively insults them, refusing to entertain the slightest notion that others could be right too, while portraying themselves as all-knowing - isn't here to 'help' or 'share'.

[monkeywrenching]

Originally Posted by BoxCar Willie

Sounds like YOU think you're Rambo. I think you're just another armchair comupter wannabe. [I wonder, HEY folks is Gunkid back out of the slammer yet?]

lol, you know about gunkid?

[monkeywrenching]

well folks, it does look like Gunkid has been let of the federal pen.

[Happy in Wyoming]

Originally Posted by tkdmom

It's a little bit of a rant on the homeless, but has some good points...especially the last paragraph.

The Overnighters: Coming to a Neighborhood Near You, by Frank C. in California - SurvivalBlog.com

If the situation even begins to approach this level the only sensible policy would be to kill all strangers with no exceptions whatsoever. I suspect that this happened more than a few times in Louisiana after Katrina. This sort of situation would only last a few weeks at most, enough time to get rid of the have-nots, that is, the looters. The weak and fearful would already be dead, victims of their own cowardice.

That if once you have paid him the Danegeld,
   You never get rid of the Dane.

Rudyard Kipling

[AK-Cathy]

I agree, interesting read. This sentence jumped out at me:

"These are the same people who, if you give them food, will sometimes throw it back at you and demand money."

I was in DC a number of years ago for a meeting and was buying a hotdog for my brief lunch break at one of those ubiquitous street vendors on the mall when I was approached by a "homeless" person. He asked for money to buy food. I offered to buy him a hotdog. He sneered and said that they were "crap that he wouldn't eat" which is probably factual, hotdogs being junk food, snouts, tails and other inedible parts, but it was ridiculous for the bum to be insulting a free lunch. So I said, "Buddy if you expect me to pay for filet mignon for you while I eat a tube steak, you are delusional. What's good enough for me is certainly good enough for you, so go find someone else to bother." He called me an unprintable name and walked away, hitting on others that were near. I saw the point the article's author was making as clear as day.

I had an opposite reaction from a very likely druggie mid 20s woman sitting on cardboard with her pre-school age daughter in Chinatown in San Francisco about 20 years ago. She had no begging sign but both were very thin. I happened to have a grapefruit that I had hauled from Alaska in my bag (I hate letting food go bad) so I gave it to the woman who thanked me and tore into it immediately.

I think the point of the initial post and the various "pissing" commentary afterward is to accurately assess one's situation. Bugging out is no good if you have no infrastructure, community or sustainability, bugging in is a problem if all the eggs are in one basket when the locusts come and if you don't have adequate defenses and again community among other issues. Personally having a Plan A, B, C and D is really all any of us can do, adjust as the scenario unfolds and then hope for the best. JMO.

[SCGranny]

One of my jobs as police dispatcher was to find places for "Overnighters" to sleep and eat. Several churches in town provided food, money, and motel rooms for these people. Rarely - and I mean about 1 in 20 - did these people not end up stealing from the churches, not get arrested for harrassing people, drunk and disorderly, trashing their 'free' motel rooms... etc. Finally the police chief convinced these churches to stop supplying these people with motel rooms and money. Often when the churches open their pantries and started loading a paper bag with food, the transient "Overnighters" would turn up their noses and leave. They came in all types and sizes; from the mentally deranged to the addicts, from grey-haired older men and women to young 20-somethings. All of them were on the make, there only to get what they could get. It became standard practice for the police/sheriff departments to take them to the edges of their jurisdiction and tell them - "Keep walking".

I am VERY cynical about 'helping the poor'. No one gets handouts at my house, much less out in public. There are poor people here in town who might find a box of meat, fruits, baked goods, or vegetables on their doorstep when they come home from work, with no tags or notes to tell them where it came from, but that's it. My neighbors and I all help each other, but we share nothing with strangers. We believe in the old Chinese proverb - "If you feed a stray cat, you are responsible for it for the rest of its life" - and we choose not to take that responsibility. We have a tiny, comfortable mutual-aid society here, and we all know who does what, who carries, and who's responsible for what... We don't need meetings or a hierarchy - everyone has his or her own property, ways and plans and means, and we work together quietly and sustain each other.

[Mircea]

Originally Posted by AK-Cathy

I agree, interesting read. This sentence jumped out at me:

"These are the same people who, if you give them food, will sometimes throw it back at you and demand money."

That's true. I've witnessed panhandlers standing outside Wendy's and a patron offering to buy them a sandwich, and the say something like, "Just give me the money."

I applaud people who call them out and refuse to subsidize their drug and/or alcohol habits.

Originally Posted by AK-Cathy

I think the point of the initial post and the various "pissing" commentary afterward is to accurately assess one's situation. Bugging out is no good if you have no infrastructure, community or sustainability, bugging in is a problem if all the eggs are in one basket when the locusts come and if you don't have adequate defenses and again community among other issues. Personally having a Plan A, B, C and D is really all any of us can do, adjust as the scenario unfolds and then hope for the best. JMO.

If that is your attitude, then your chance of surviving is extremely high.

How ironic is it that primitive humans, Homo Erectus, Homo Habilis, Homo Neanderthalis and Homo Sapiens were smart enough to recognize that success for survival requires living in groups?

There is no shoe-box one-size-fits-all plan. Planning for Nuclear EMP or Solar EMP is one in the same. Those are the two most likely events to occur in one's life-time.

Nuclear Winter? If Pinatubo goes Toba, or Yellowstone burps, or an asteroid smacks into Earth, you'll need to alter your plans. Temperatures above surface could drop to as low as -40°F.

All those people living in their basements and underground bunkers, please leave a note pinned to your clothing describing how you want to be cooked. In that way, when our scavenging teams find your dead frozen corpses, we can do you some justice.

You'll need to go deep underground, at least 250' to 500'. My advice, start with your local county historical society and find abandoned mines in your county. Doesn't matter which kind: salt, coal, phosphate, borates, mica, iron etc (uh, try to stay away from uranium mines). If there are none, then start looking through material at the historical societies in counties that are adjacent to your county, and then spiral out from there.

If you find one, have a look/see to determine if it is viable, and if it is, then plan your travel routes to account for military, law enforcement or other problems.

Cave systems can work too, but mines would be better.

There aren't really any other scenarios. Economic collapse is nonsense. "Civil disobedience" is another silly one. A Pandemic is a possibility, but I'd recommend that people ready up on the Spanish Flu, before wasting $50,000 on "survival gear."

I'm sure people are profiting handsomely from the gullible. I wish I was totally unethical and immoral so that I could profit off the ignorance of others. I would make a killing.

Interestingly...

Mircea

Originally Posted by BoxCar Willie

Sounds like YOU think you're Rambo

I'll take that as a compliment.

I'll also take that as a clear and convincing admission by you that you were either totally blown away and left speechless by what I said, or half of it went over your head and the other half went way, way over your head.

Right?

Because the only thing you felt compelled to criticize was the messenger.

Basking...

Mircea

Originally Posted by SCGranny

My thoughts exactly, BC Willie.

Someone who insists that they are on here to 'educate' people, and then roundly and repetitively insults them, refusing to entertain the slightest notion that others could be right too, while portraying themselves as all-knowing - isn't here to 'help' or 'share'.

Okay, then here is your chance to strut your stuff and educate the good people on this forum, instead of attacking the messenger for educating people and raising issues and points beyond your ability to comprehend.

Given the choice of planting wheat or corn, tell these good people which one they should plant, but more importantly, explain to these good folks why you chose the crop you did, because it could save their lives.

Educating...

Mircea

Originally Posted by my54ford

A fortified community with several hundred defenders (includeing combat trained and equiped NG), internal security forces, water, power, food) If they have tanks and we run out of dragons and tows for the bradley they might get in...otherwise the hogs are gonna be fat after that fight!!!!

At least you have the right idea. If you have a backhoe, you can dig a tank trap ditch. That will force them to bring engineers up with the scissors bridge or something, and you can shoot and harass them.

Also, if you have been studying the reports coming out of Iraq and Afghanistan, the M1 doesn't do too well against fire, and neither does the M2/M3.

Flame throwing...

Mircea

[Sky1]

Finally a post that make sense

Originally Posted by Mircea

You started out with a bang and ended with a whimper.

You are 100% correct in that "preppers" are doing nothing but wasting their money supplying others (hopefully those who kill the "preppers" won't pee on their dead bodies -- like it really matters since the "preppers": are dead anyway).

Where you failed is that no amount of OPSEC will alter the reality.

Now, understand that "prepping" is relative to Group Dynamics.

If you live in Eagle Grove, Iowa (population 3,712 at 2000 census; the largest city in Wright County) then by all means, please "prep" away to your heart's contentment.

Kind of smells like "Jericho" and "New Bern."

What is the Group Dynamic here? There is no anonymity. Everyone knows everyone (and everyone's business) and so you don't have to worry about thugs (although the 35,000 people in Fort Dodge roughly 40 miles away might pose a threat).

If you live in a larger urban area, then the Group Dynamic is total anonymity, and yes if you're thinking Mob Mentality then you're on the right track.

The fact that you live in suburbia will not alter the reality that in less than 4 hours, 10,000 screaming starving maniacs will be on your doorstep.

Where I live, there's 310,000+ in the city, and a total of 1 Million in the county, and when they start migrating in search of food, they will leave no stone unturned.

They will be searching house-to-house looking for food, clothing, anything they can use as a weapon (like kitchen knives), tools, or anything else of value.

"I will defend my home." No you will not. Stop houghing farts like an idiot.

Unless you have 8 shooters, you cannot defend all 360° of your home (or apartment).

Blind spots. Doh! I've seen thousands of homes with 1-2 car garages, and there is no window on the garage, or there is no window(s) on side of the house. That is a blind spot. Once someone gets to the perimeter, it's over.

3-5 Second Rush. Doh! You're going kill 20 people rushing directly at you in less than 5 seconds? No you are not, and once they are up against the perimeter, it is over.

Did you forget about things like depression/elevation? Yes, you most certainly did.

Oh, yes, like an idle school-boy, you barricaded the windows, boarding them up and left yourself "firing ports." Too bad for you that you totally forgot about depression/elevation, because once someone gets up to the wall next/under the window, you cannot see them or shoot them, and your life will end (and they will pee on your dead body -- like good marines).

Ever drive through some of the subdivisions? How much distance between one house and the next? Maybe 10 feet, maybe 60 feet.

Any of you fellas ever heard of a "ladder?"

Nope.

I throw up a ladder, climb up on the roof of one house with my people, then we take another ladder and lay it across to your roof and walk across and viola! We're on top of your house.

And you all thought you were smart. I guess you ain't all that.

And there's always fire. Don't underestimate people's intelligence. I know how to make anti-personnel hand grenades, napalm grenades, incendiary grenades, chemical (poison) grenades, smoke grenades, trip-flares etc, etc, etc. And I'm not the only one.

So defending your home is a total impossibility (unless you live in Eagle Grove, Iowa) and if you attempt to do so, the only thing that will happen is that you and your loved ones will die, probably horribly, get peed on, and then others will take all that you have, and your home ends up becoming a supply depot for others.

The only way you will survive is through collective security in a large group, that would have ideally at least 100 able-bodied shooters (who can also hump and run patrols).

In the first 30 days after "it" happens, you will be working feverishly day and night making mortars, mortar rounds, pipe bombs, hand grenades and constructing defensive positions, to take on "The Hoard" that will be coming after you shortly.

And you'll be burning down houses. Why? There's 16 houses in a cul-de-sac. Do I have the man power to take sledgehammers to those homes to get at the electrical wiring and plumbing? No, I don't. What a waste of time and energy. I can just burn down all 16 houses and then very easily get at the wiring and plumbing. And why do I need it? Mortars, mortar rounds, pipe bombs, sabot rounds, home-made recoiless rifles (like RPG-7, RPG-12, LAW, 90 mm) etc etc, and I need the wiring for trip wires for booby traps, trip-flares, etc etc, and for antennas for communications (many HAMs build their own radios using vacuum tubes -- those will survive EMP), plus I need the wire to construct a crude telegraph system for communicating with out-posts which will eventually morph into a crude field phone system, once we collect enough telephone parts.

Besides, if I burn down the houses, then they cannot be occupied by threat forces.

So prepping will get you absolutely nowhere, except dead. Prepping without a cogent survival plan is the same thing as planning to fail, which means being killed and peed on.

If you don't want the women in your life to be brutally raped and sodomized or used as sex slaves, then my advice is to dump the idiotic macho He-Man I'll-Defend-My-Castle nonsense and cowboy up with a survival group.

You can form a non-profit group, and then prep and have your supplies pre-positioned in a safe place that can be easily defended by a group of people.

This thread...

http://www.city-data.com/forum/22432674-post10.html

...gives some novice starter points on selecting an area that can be easily defended, and offers food sources.

It also touches briefly on using a county or State park or some other relatively safe place as a Rally Point for the people in your survival group. Everyone rallies there, and then armed security personnel from your survival group escort them safely to The Haven so that you can start the process of surviving, and then once all threats to your group are neutralized, you can start the process of rebuilding society, or at least rebuilding what's left of your lives.

Laughing at "preppers"...

Mircea