Who has or has thought of getting a cob cottage? (friendly, horses)

[ognend]

Originally Posted by CSD610

This might be the way for Sneakers and I to build our home when we purchase our land. Thank you for the information, it is much appreciated.

There are two books you want:

Amazon.com: The Hand-Sculpted House: A Practical and Philosophical Guide to Building a Cob Cottage: The Real Goods Solar Living Book (9781890132347): Ianto Evans, Michael G. Smith, Linda Smiley, Deanne Bednar: Books

and

http://www.amazon.com/Building-Cob-S..._bxgy_b_text_b

OD

[ognend]

Originally Posted by CSD610

This might be the way for Sneakers and I to build our home when we purchase our land. Thank you for the information, it is much appreciated.

There are two books you want:

Amazon.com: The Hand-Sculpted House: A Practical and Philosophical Guide to Building a Cob Cottage: The Real Goods Solar Living Book (9781890132347): Ianto Evans, Michael G. Smith, Linda Smiley, Deanne Bednar: Books

and

Amazon.com: Building With Cob: A Step-by-step Guide (9781903998724): Adam Weismann, Katy Bryce: Books

OD

[zthatzmanz28]

Trying to convince my wife to do a bale house..

[jetgraphics]

Originally Posted by ognend

[1] There are cob buildings still standing since 10th or so century.
[2] In any case, they are cheap (unlike your concrete titanium thing), very [3] SOLID (you can make the walls extra thick or as thick as you want) and in dry climates very low maintenance (I would not build one in Florida). You can build cob "furniture" inside and run a pipe off your stove underneath your cob bed and couch for [4] free warmth in the winter... as far as I know they are one of the cheapest forms of building. In addition they are also one of the healthiest, with an earthen floor you basically can build a home free of [5] chemicals. Something that can definitely not be said about your super reinforced concrete/titanium building
Finally, a cob home [6] requires no foundation (which cannot be said of your home) and can go up as quick as you can make it with your hands and feet.

[1] Citations, please. Is it just a few buildings that have endured? And how much maintenance?
In contrast, Roman concrete (pozzolan) has lasted over 2000 years. Check out Roman aqueducts, bridges, walls, and the Pantheon (126 AD), one of the many examples of Roman engineering that has endured millennia.

Another example is the abandoned "concrete city" that is still standing despite generations of fires and abuse.

The durability and strength of concrete is a known quality. Though, the "secret" of Roman concrete was lost for 13 centuries. Modern "Portland cement" was patented in 1824. Which may explain the historical gap in concrete examples.

[2] What facts lead you to presume concrete is not cheap?
If you used concrete to build a tornado proof box, 4" thick, 28' x 28' x 8', you'd need about 31 cu yds of concrete. At $70 per cubic yard, that's around $2,170. (The "trick" to cheap concrete house building is to get the concrete to cure in the shape of a house)
And that "titanium thing" is titanium dioxide, used in everything from paint pigment ("white paint"), food coloring, to sunblock (on your skin). And as a catalyst for "eating" pollution (smog), it's a "great thing" for the environment.

[3] I presume you are referring to density. All solids are solid. Thickness is not a characteristic of density. And cob is not denser than concrete. Nor would a multistory cob house endure earthquakes, flood, storm surge, vermin, etc, etc.
Cob strength is estimated at roughly 100 to 170 psi.
In contrast, concrete strength varies from 2500 psi (17 MPa) for residential concrete to 4000 psi (28 MPa) for commercial projects.

[4] If burning wood in your stove for "warmth", you are anti-green, taking the decades long life of a tree, an accumulation of past solar energy, and consuming it in a brief period of time. Deforestation is a well known consequence of wood burning cultures.

[5] All things are chemicals. I presume you are referring to compounds that have an elevated risk for damage. Don't forget that a 100% oxygen atmosphere can be dangerous (hyperoxia). And too much water will kill you. So will too much of most things. What specific toxins are you referring to with respect to cured reinforced concrete? Or sealed / painted / whitewashed concrete? Do you fear all engineering and technology without reason? Are you aware that bare soil can hold toxins? Are you aware that going barefoot or living in houses with dirt floors may increase exposure to Hanson's disease (Leprosy)?

[6] Building a cob house in an area with frost heaving will eventually demonstrate why foundations are a necessity. Ditto for scour, uneven load bearing soil, sand, high winds, floods, storm surge, etc., etc.

Want to be safe?
Concrete sandwich wall homes have endured hurricanes.
Hurricane, Earthquake, Fire, Tornado proof, fire resistant homes
Tridipanel - disaster proof homes, hurricane proof homes, tornado proof homes
K-Panel.com
HELIX Concrete Durability with a Twist

But don't let these points deter you from building whatever you want.

[SCGranny]

Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28

Trying to convince my wife to do a bale house..

Be very, very careful about hay bale structures.

The hay has to be gathered when it is dry, and stored away from the elements. It should be put together with wire, not baling twine (rot). If it is exposed to rain or even high humidity prior to building, it will mold and rot, with all of those accompanying problems. Unless you know the people who have gathered the hay personally, there could be inherent moisture in the hay, that will hold rot deep inside the bales.

Mice, bugs and other small creatures like to live in hay, so you have to make sure that you seal the hay bale structure both inside and out, and check it constantly for fissures and 'escape routes' as the house settles, etc. The more humidity and rain, the more likely you will have breakdown/rot/infestation.

Hay is also extremely expensive right now, as prices have gone up due to TX drought, and transporting enough hay will impact fuel and your eventual costs. A group of folks I know bought several flatbed truckloads of hay, that was baled precisely to their request for the hay bale structure they were planning, last year @ $8000 a load. It rotted before they could use it. This year the same type of hay will cost them $10,000 a truckload. The smaller and wire-tied bales are more expensive, as are the requirements for storage.

I know of one "hay bale structure" that has survived 8 years so far - it is slabbed with concrete inside and out, and set on concrete floors with a sealed metal roof. There is absolutely no way for moisture to get in - except that being slabbed in that way can potentially cause condensation to accumulate within the walls where no one can see it ('concrete sweat'). Our area is very very dry - at the most humid point of summer, the humidity doesn't go above 60% - but we have our winters with lots of snow accumulation and our rainy season of spring, which may be affecting/eventually affect those hale bales snuggled deep inside the concrete. Problem is that there's no way to know... the wiring is through the hay and cement walls as well. Call me crazy, or overcautious, but I don't like the idea of electrical wire and potential combustibles cuddled together. Adding metal or even PVC conduit to protect the wiring will also raise your price, though.

Everything deteriorates over time, but personally I'd rather build with things where the deterioration can be properly estimated and provided for.

[ognend]

Originally Posted by jetgraphics

[1] Citations, please. Is it just a few buildings that have endured? And how much maintenance?
In contrast, Roman concrete (pozzolan) has lasted over 2000 years. Check out Roman aqueducts, bridges, walls, and the Pantheon (126 AD), one of the many examples of Roman engineering that has endured millennia.

Another example is the abandoned "concrete city" that is still standing despite generations of fires and abuse.

The durability and strength of concrete is a known quality. Though, the "secret" of Roman concrete was lost for 13 centuries. Modern "Portland cement" was patented in 1824. Which may explain the historical gap in concrete examples.

[2] What facts lead you to presume concrete is not cheap?
If you used concrete to build a tornado proof box, 4" thick, 28' x 28' x 8', you'd need about 31 cu yds of concrete. At $70 per cubic yard, that's around $2,170. (The "trick" to cheap concrete house building is to get the concrete to cure in the shape of a house)
And that "titanium thing" is titanium dioxide, used in everything from paint pigment ("white paint"), food coloring, to sunblock (on your skin). And as a catalyst for "eating" pollution (smog), it's a "great thing" for the environment.

[3] I presume you are referring to density. All solids are solid. Thickness is not a characteristic of density. And cob is not denser than concrete. Nor would a multistory cob house endure earthquakes, flood, storm surge, vermin, etc, etc.
Cob strength is estimated at roughly 100 to 170 psi.
In contrast, concrete strength varies from 2500 psi (17 MPa) for residential concrete to 4000 psi (28 MPa) for commercial projects.

[4] If burning wood in your stove for "warmth", you are anti-green, taking the decades long life of a tree, an accumulation of past solar energy, and consuming it in a brief period of time. Deforestation is a well known consequence of wood burning cultures.

[5] All things are chemicals. I presume you are referring to compounds that have an elevated risk for damage. Don't forget that a 100% oxygen atmosphere can be dangerous (hyperoxia). And too much water will kill you. So will too much of most things. What specific toxins are you referring to with respect to cured reinforced concrete? Or sealed / painted / whitewashed concrete? Do you fear all engineering and technology without reason? Are you aware that bare soil can hold toxins? Are you aware that going barefoot or living in houses with dirt floors may increase exposure to Hanson's disease (Leprosy)?

[6] Building a cob house in an area with frost heaving will eventually demonstrate why foundations are a necessity. Ditto for scour, uneven load bearing soil, sand, high winds, floods, storm surge, etc., etc.

Want to be safe?
Concrete sandwich wall homes have endured hurricanes.
Hurricane, Earthquake, Fire, Tornado proof, fire resistant homes
Tridipanel - disaster proof homes, hurricane proof homes, tornado proof homes
K-Panel.com
HELIX Concrete Durability with a Twist

But don't let these points deter you from building whatever you want.

1: You can google that, don't let me stop you
2: If you have clay in your yard, building a cob home is almost free. Concrete you still have to buy. Even at the prices you are talking about it will be more expensive.
3: Not really sure what to say here.
4: If you have wood on your land then burning it is not a problem. You can also utilize pelleted stoves or any other source of heat you want. I just used the example of wood because it is a natural material that you may have access to on your own land.
5: All things may have chemicals but that's like saying it is the same to drink pure water from a 1000ft deep well and gatorade mixed with rum. They are both "liquids". Your reinforced concrete has a bunch of stuff that may seep or leak into your living space, air, whatever. Yes, I realize we are surrounded by chemicals anywhere we go but that does not mean we have to have them in our walls too.
6: Cob houses have their place in the right climates. These homes have proven their worth - they had been built by our ancestors and are still standing.

As I said, I would not build one in Florida but in general, you should always build with the material that you can find on your own land. If your land is rich with rock, you should build a stone home, it will last you for centuries (as they have in Europe). If you have a forest on your land, a log home is in your cards, it will last you a very long time (if properly taken care of). And so on, and so on.

Today's modern culture is all about the new, the "better", the "more stuff in it" etc. As for your titanium <insert here whatever you want> concrete that will protect you from doomsday - great, knock yourself out - I just think that all these "super" materials and shelters always prove to have some fatal flaw or decades down the road it turns out that some compound used in it was toxic or ....

OD

[roadrat]

Originally Posted by SCGranny

Be very, very careful about hay bale structures.

The hay has to be gathered when it is dry, and stored away from the elements. It should be put together with wire, not baling twine (rot). If it is exposed to rain or even high humidity prior to building, it will mold and rot, with all of those accompanying problems. Unless you know the people who have gathered the hay personally, there could be inherent moisture in the hay, that will hold rot deep inside the bales.

Mice, bugs and other small creatures like to live in hay, so you have to make sure that you seal the hay bale structure both inside and out, and check it constantly for fissures and 'escape routes' as the house settles, etc. The more humidity and rain, the more likely you will have breakdown/rot/infestation.

Hay is also extremely expensive right now, as prices have gone up due to TX drought, and transporting enough hay will impact fuel and your eventual costs. A group of folks I know bought several flatbed truckloads of hay, that was baled precisely to their request for the hay bale structure they were planning, last year @ $8000 a load. It rotted before they could use it. This year the same type of hay will cost them $10,000 a truckload. The smaller and wire-tied bales are more expensive, as are the requirements for storage.

I know of one "hay bale structure" that has survived 8 years so far - it is slabbed with concrete inside and out, and set on concrete floors with a sealed metal roof. There is absolutely no way for moisture to get in - except that being slabbed in that way can potentially cause condensation to accumulate within the walls where no one can see it ('concrete sweat'). Our area is very very dry - at the most humid point of summer, the humidity doesn't go above 60% - but we have our winters with lots of snow accumulation and our rainy season of spring, which may be affecting/eventually affect those hale bales snuggled deep inside the concrete. Problem is that there's no way to know... the wiring is through the hay and cement walls as well. Call me crazy, or overcautious, but I don't like the idea of electrical wire and potential combustibles cuddled together. Adding metal or even PVC conduit to protect the wiring will also raise your price, though.

Everything deteriorates over time, but personally I'd rather build with things where the deterioration can be properly estimated and provided for.

Idon't think you build with HAY bales, I think you need to use STRAW bales.


bill

[SCGranny]

Originally Posted by roadrat

Idon't think you build with HAY bales, I think you need to use STRAW bales.


bill

Straw is better, but hay has been used. The same concerns apply for hay or straw - mold, bugs, critters, moisture.

[jetgraphics]

Originally Posted by ognend

1: You can google that, don't let me stop you

You made the claim. Back it up.
Everywhere I look the story is the same, hearsay and no actual data.

Originally Posted by ognend

2: If you have clay in your yard, building a cob home is almost free. Concrete you still have to buy. Even at the prices you are talking about it will be more expensive.

If you mean that labor intensive (working your butt off) is "almost free".
Okay.
If you want a GOOD labor intensive method - try rammed earth. That has a long track record, easily corroborated.
(Ex: Great Wall of China, for one)
Here's some rammed earth fortresses that have been in service since 1371:
Oldest Tulou Building Dates Back To 1371 New World Heritage scenic zone of Hua'An Tulou in China open to visitors - eTurboNews.com
Or this one:
rammed earth building
The oldest surviving rammed earth buildings are around 8000 years old.

Originally Posted by ognend

3: Not really sure what to say here.

Cob is weak. Don't build with it.

Originally Posted by ognend

4: If you have wood on your land then burning it is not a problem. You can also utilize pelleted stoves or any other source of heat you want. I just used the example of wood because it is a natural material that you may have access to on your own land.

Deforesting one's own land may not appear to be a problem - at first. But in time, the consequences are evident.
Count how many trees you have, and calculate how many cords of wood you'll need, and do the math.
If you really wish to be "green" and not consume resources, consider superinsulation.

Originally Posted by ognend

5: All things may have chemicals but that's like saying it is the same to drink pure water from a 1000ft deep well and gatorade mixed with rum. They are both "liquids". Your reinforced concrete has a bunch of stuff that may seep or leak into your living space, air, whatever. Yes, I realize we are surrounded by chemicals anywhere we go but that does not mean we have to have them in our walls too.

All things ARE chemicals - air, water, hydrocarbons, bone.
And you analogy falls flat. Because there is no guarantee a water well has "pure" water. Most likely it will have dissolved minerals depending on the subsoil and rock strata - and that can mean contaminants like arsenic, radon, uranium, calcium, iron, and magnesium, to name a few. If you want "pure" water, collect rainwater - nature's distilled vintage.
Water well - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Name what toxic "stuff" will seep or leak from reinforced cement or concrete.

Originally Posted by ognend

6: Cob houses have their place in the right climates. These homes have proven their worth - they had been built by our ancestors and are still standing.

Please present facts in support of your opinion.
Ancestors built them is not a persuasive argument.
Ancestors built outhouses, and they're still standing, too.

Originally Posted by ognend

As I said, I would not build one in Florida but in general, you should always build with the material that you can find on your own land. If your land is rich with rock, you should build a stone home, it will last you for centuries (as they have in Europe). If you have a forest on your land, a log home is in your cards, it will last you a very long time (if properly taken care of). And so on, and so on.

Have you ever researched log houses?
They don't last for a long time, in general. The few that have, are in pitiful shape.

Originally Posted by ognend

Today's modern culture is all about the new, the "better", the "more stuff in it" etc. As for your titanium <insert here whatever you want> concrete that will protect you from doomsday - great, knock yourself out - I just think that all these "super" materials and shelters always prove to have some fatal flaw or decades down the road it turns out that some compound used in it was toxic or ....

Mock "modern culture" but do some studies in civil engineering - just to be safe. Learn WHY you need to know the load bearing properties of the soil to determine what kind of foundation you need. Learn about load bearing walls and why you want them plumb and not quaint and crooked.
If you wish to discount sound engineering in favor of feel good opinions, go for it. But unsupported opinions are a poor way to shelter yourself and your possessions from climate extremes, disasters, intruders, and whatever. You don't want to do a "Ken Kern" and have your experimental home-built design fall on you and kill you.

Natural building - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[ognend]

Originally Posted by jetgraphics

You made the claim. Back it up.
Everywhere I look the story is the same, hearsay and no actual data.


If you mean that labor intensive (working your butt off) is "almost free".
Okay.
If you want a GOOD labor intensive method - try rammed earth. That has a long track record, easily corroborated.
(Ex: Great Wall of China, for one)
Here's some rammed earth fortresses that have been in service since 1371:
Oldest Tulou Building Dates Back To 1371 New World Heritage scenic zone of Hua'An Tulou in China open to visitors - eTurboNews.com
Or this one:
rammed earth building
The oldest surviving rammed earth buildings are around 8000 years old.

Cob is weak. Don't build with it.

Deforesting one's own land may not appear to be a problem - at first. But in time, the consequences are evident.
Count how many trees you have, and calculate how many cords of wood you'll need, and do the math.
If you really wish to be "green" and not consume resources, consider superinsulation.

All things ARE chemicals - air, water, hydrocarbons, bone.
And you analogy falls flat. Because there is no guarantee a water well has "pure" water. Most likely it will have dissolved minerals depending on the subsoil and rock strata - and that can mean contaminants like arsenic, radon, uranium, calcium, iron, and magnesium, to name a few. If you want "pure" water, collect rainwater - nature's distilled vintage.
Water well - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Name what toxic "stuff" will seep or leak from reinforced cement or concrete.


Please present facts in support of your opinion.
Ancestors built them is not a persuasive argument.
Ancestors built outhouses, and they're still standing, too.


Have you ever researched log houses?
They don't last for a long time, in general. The few that have, are in pitiful shape.


Mock "modern culture" but do some studies in civil engineering - just to be safe. Learn WHY you need to know the load bearing properties of the soil to determine what kind of foundation you need. Learn about load bearing walls and why you want them plumb and not quaint and crooked.
If you wish to discount sound engineering in favor of feel good opinions, go for it. But unsupported opinions are a poor way to shelter yourself and your possessions from climate extremes, disasters, intruders, and whatever. You don't want to do a "Ken Kern" and have your experimental home-built design fall on you and kill you.

Natural building - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Meh...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cob_(material)
Cob was used at least since 13th century.

As for your "water well may have chemicals" - well, yeah, anything can. Problem is, that's something I cannot alter. I sure can control what I build with. I don't want to add more chemicals to my living environment than has already been added for me, outside my choosing and control. You can throw around your "study civil engineering" recommendations but I don't trust modern science nor engineering much, simply because it has not had the chance to prove itself to the test of time. Just like any other "science" these days, every 10-15 years things dramatically change, things that were healthy yesterday and cancerogenic today, what was code just 5 years ago isn't code anymore, yadda yadda yadda. Our ancestors were not geniuses but one thing they knew was how to live in tune with Nature - something that your titanium reinforced concrete ain't...

Cob is as safe as anything else to build with, it is dirt-cheap ('scuse the pun) and yes, it is labor "work your butt off" intensive (but so what?).

As for your claim on not being green by burning my own wood, that's somewhat of a funny thing. I guess your concrete didn't take "dirty" methods to produce, it didn't use any energy and transporting it to your home didn't take any fossil fuels? What about your titanium? Or the steel that goes into the foundation? I suppose the rods came out of Mother Earth's belly in that shape...

How do you propose to heat your super-concrete shelter any other way than I would heat my cob cottage? We both got to burn something to heat it, whatever you can burn I can too. I can position my cottage to take advantage of passive solar heating, cooling whatever, you can too.. The walls on a cottage can be 24-36 inches thick, combine that with a nice fireplace or stove inside and the thermal mass will do the rest.

I can also build my shelving, my furniture, my bed using cob (and use cob's thermal mass to keep it warm too) - you will need to buy your furniture, have it shipped to you etc. Cob is (damn near) free, concrete is not...

You claim your super-reinforced structure would survive everything but ya know, learn from all the reactor failures around the world, from all the buildings going down in earthquakes, all the structures falling apart in tornadoes, hurricanes etc. - nothing is guaranteed to stand...

OD