U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Self-Sufficiency and Preparedness
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 02-09-2012, 09:32 AM
 
Location: Central US
202 posts, read 221,584 times
Reputation: 365

Advertisements

We live out in the country and have some acres. How would you suggest we defend ourselves and our property in case of the SHTF scenario?

Some people here say you must have a large group to defend anything but what if that is not possible? There are four grownups in my family that live close.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-09-2012, 09:38 AM
 
19,976 posts, read 16,085,506 times
Reputation: 14039
Military grade flame thrower would be a significant deterrent. Couple a dozen guns with a years supply of ammo, half a dozen hyper pit bulls..Or join your local Hells Angels chapter.
Or just move to a safer place..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-09-2012, 10:26 AM
 
Location: Backwoods of Maine
2,422 posts, read 2,806,315 times
Reputation: 4281
Unfortunately, most rural homes are built close to the road. I say 'unfortunately' because that usually means "visible from the road". Most were built long before anyone thought there would be changes here in the USA. You may or may not be visible from the road, but if your house is visible, that's not such a good thing. However, being rural IS a good thing.

Most people have driveways leading into their property, and you can run cables across the driveway to limit access by vehicles, and slow down any pedestrians. This is assuming that your driveway is the only good access point from the road. If the entire front of your property is just flat grass, cabling or spiking your driveway won't help much. They'll just go over the grass. If this is the case, you'll have to decide between aesthetics and safety -- plant a double row of something fast-growing like lombardy poplars. That will prevent both vehicle access and visibilty, but not pedestrians.

There is a big difference between a rural home and a survival retreat. Survival retreats have to be planned in advance of building and landscaping. There are advantageous spots on most acreages to build, and these were seldom taken advantage of by folks moving 'out to the country' in prior years. Only you know your particular set-up, so I cannot advise any further.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-09-2012, 10:33 AM
PDD
 
Location: The Sand Hills of NC
5,910 posts, read 6,040,067 times
Reputation: 6623
Razor wire topped fence, guard towers on four corners each equipped with a machine gun.
Medicine cabinet filled with cyanide capsules in case security gets breached.
Best to take your own life rather than those murderous neighbors taking your stuff.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-09-2012, 10:42 AM
 
Location: 125 Years Too Late...
6,686 posts, read 5,539,347 times
Reputation: 6325
My opinion is that in a typical situation, unless it's close to a one-to-one ratio showdown and you have some skills with weaponry, the chances are slim. As scummy as those scummy people are, they will have some skills as they take what isn't theirs.

I think the best way to reduce the chances of being raided is to be "out of sight, out of mind," meaning the doomstead () should be in an area nobody would think of going on a raid, or nobody would want to bother with when going on a raid. Try to make it so everyone else is easier pickings with larger rewards. That probably means life is going to be tougher for you, but that's the way it's going to have to be to make life tougher for them. Make yourself not worth the trouble.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-09-2012, 11:58 AM
 
Location: Minnysoda
5,103 posts, read 4,534,353 times
Reputation: 2323
Your going to find as many opinions on this as you'd find a-holes at a soccer match!!! I'll stand firm in my belief that there is security in numbers! And imho 4 people (adults) are not enough! ONE of my plans sounds a lot like yours and I'm counting on a minimum of 8 couples plus kids, dogs,cats, horses and goats to ensure collective survival.

Don't discount kids in your defense plans......Study the child army issues in Africa right, now kids can kick some ass!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-09-2012, 02:42 PM
 
19,127 posts, read 11,342,056 times
Reputation: 7119
In the event, make it appear not lived in for awhile...... If it's set back make a sign now to weather well, and mark it something 'Old Towne Dump'. In other words hide it in plain sight.

That 1717 thing is getting me. Shoot me a dm for that ok? mac

(Lovell's War?)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-09-2012, 03:02 PM
 
Location: Ohio
10,646 posts, read 5,956,185 times
Reputation: 6053
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1717Guy View Post
We live out in the country and have some acres. How would you suggest we defend ourselves and our property in case of the SHTF scenario?

Some people here say you must have a large group to defend anything but what if that is not possible? There are four grownups in my family that live close.
That's a great question.

The first step is to calculate the carrying capacity for the county in which you live.

To do that, you'll need pull some data about your county from City-Data. For god's sake, don't ask me how to get there, because I don't know how. I have to use a search engine and type "county state 'city-data'" in order to pull it up.

The carrying capacity will determine how many people your county can sustain. I'll use my county as an example. From the City-Data info, we want this information:

Quote:
Hamilton County, Ohio (OH)
County population in July 2009: 855,062 (98% urban, 2% rural)
County owner-occupied houses and condos: 207,533
Renter-occupied apartments: 139,257

Land area: 407 sq. mi.
Water area: 5.4 sq. mi.
Population density: 2099 people per square mile (very high).

[Note: The following info will be near the bottom of the file so you'll have to scroll down]

Agriculture in Hamilton County:
Average size of farms: 74 acres
Irrigated harvested cropland as a percentage of land in farms: 5.57%
Average number of cattle and calves per 100 acres of all land in farms: 6.07
Milk cows as a percentage of all cattle and calves: 20.76%
Corn for grain: 3347 harvested acres
All wheat for grain: 660 harvested acres
Soybeans for beans: 5267 harvested acres
Vegetables: 418 harvested acres
Land in orchards: 138 acres
This is the data I will use for the calculations:

Corn for grain: 3347 harvested acres
All wheat for grain: 660 harvested acres
Soybeans for beans: 5267 harvested acres
Vegetables: 418 harvested acres

Orchards are nice, but I ignore them. We have a total of 9,692 acres of cropland.

It takes 2.5 acres of land to sustain one person at Subsistence Level. Subsistence Level is the minimum basic calorie requirements that will allow people to function and perform manual labor tasks (like farming). Our carrying capacity is the number of acres divided by 2.5:


9,692 / 2.5 = 3876.8 or 3,900 rounded up.

Unfortunately there are 855,062 people in Hamilton County so that means 851,162 people are going to die in the Die-Off.

If the population of you county is less than the carrying capacity, then you probably do not need to worry about defense. Since you live in a rural county, let's look at some rural counties for comparison. We'll start with Bullock County, Alabama. From the City-Data info, we get this:

Quote:
County population in July 2009: 10,985 (35% urban, 65% rural) County owner-occupied houses and condos: 2,967
Renter-occupied apartments: 1,019

Land area: 625 sq. mi.
Water area: 1.0 sq. mi.
Population density: 18 people per square mile (low).

Agriculture in Bullock County:
Average number of cattle and calves per 100 acres of all land in farms: 7.06
Corn for grain: 492 harvested acres
All wheat for grain: 35 harvested acres
Vegetables: 67 harvested acres
Land in orchards: 980 acres
The total farm land is 594 acres.

594 / 2.5 = 240 people

Ooops.

The carrying capacity for this county is only 240 people. Note that you do have a lot of orchards. You might be able to carry 500 people here, but that is unfortunate because the population is 10,985 people.


There's going to be intense competition for food resources, and much of that will come from the 35% urban area or about 4,000 people or so. About 50% will die of violence in the first two weeks or so, leaving 2,000 in the city, which in this instance is the centrally located Union Springs. People normally follow natural corridors such as Interstates and US Routes, or walk along rivers. Here, the urban scum will move in all directions along US 82 and US 29 in search of food.

As far as defenders, maybe 12-20 would be sufficient. At most you'd have a handful of stragglers. You should be able to coordinate mutual defense with neighbors and deal with it effectively.

Let's look at rural Switzerland County, Indiana. City-Data says:

Quote:
County population in July 2009: 9,675 (all rural) County owner-occupied houses and condos: 2,674
Renter-occupied apartments: 761

Land area: 221 sq. mi.
Water area: 2.3 sq. mi.
Population density: 44 people per square mile (average).

Agriculture in Switzerland County:
Average size of farms: 130 acres
Average number of cattle and calves per 100 acres of all land in farms: 9.23
Milk cows as a percentage of all cattle and calves: 5.13%
Corn for grain: 3230 harvested acres
All wheat for grain: 535 harvested acres
Soybeans for beans: 7722 harvested acres
Vegetables: 23 harvested acres
Land in orchards: 34 acres
Our total farmland here is 11,510 acres.

11,510 / 2.5 = 4,604 people

Given the initial die-off of the elderly, those on medication, suicides etc, the population would be reduced to about 7,500 very quickly. According this, they have about 1,000 head of cattle, and if the people work together and manage their resources well, give full rations to defenders and laborers, and famine rations to all others, they might be able to survive fairly well. I happen to know this area fairly well, and they do have a lot of fallow farmland that they can bring back into play and increase the natural carrying capacity.

Defense here would not be the primary issue.

I hope that clarifies things for you.

You'll see that in my case, I have 855,062 welfare pukes, ghetto pukes and Libtards who have lived their whole lives getting hand-outs or hand-holding from the government. Having to think for themselves, and take care of themselves, well, they just won't be able to do that, and they'll be after those who can think to take care of them. I don't have the time (or the inclination) to hold their hands through the rest of their lives.

Because of the very high population density in this county, the initial die-off will be very high. The violence will begin almost immediately, and then expand in both scope and intensity within 7-10 days as their food runs out.

Fortunately, all of the farmland is concentrated in a small part of the county. Unfortunately, everyone knows that. Fortunately, there is a natural barrier in the form of a river that separates the farmland from the thugs. They can only cross at US 50, I-74 and at Harrison Road in Miamitown. Also of note, armored vehicles can only cross at I-74 (yes, know and learn your route/road classifications and vehicle weights).

I'll have to deal with 100,000 to 500,000 people, so, yes, I'll something akin to a light infantry battalion with about 75-100 in each line company.

Which brings us to the next issue of geography. Maybe you live in a rural area, but if you are on a corridor to or adjacent to an high density population area, you will have problems. People, just like animals, will migrate from high density populations to lower density populations in a crisis. Maybe you live in a rural county in Illinois, but that is of no comfort if you're 40-90 miles from Chicago. There's 7 Million people in Chicago/Cook County, and they'll come swarming out to the west, southwest, south and southeast like locusts in search of food.

For example, Montgomery County, Ohio has 700,000 people and they'll come swarming down I-75 into Butler County and wreck havoc there. They'll also come down Ohio State Route 128 into my territory, and I'll have something special planned for them.

So, while I need 250-300 people to defend what we have, you might not, and you'll best make that determination by looking at the carrying capacity for your county, it's population density, and then look at the geography and consider the potential for people to migrate into your area from high density population areas.

If you have problems, but few defenders, consider chemical and biological warfare. If a group of 200 people descends upon you making demands and you cannot take them out, then feed them poison food so they die, and then you can burn their bodies and won't have to put up with their crap anymore.

You might be able to rig up make-shift gas chambers. Tell them "food's in the barn" then lock them in and gas them to death with chlorine or something.

Surviving...

Mircea
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-09-2012, 06:20 PM
 
Location: Minnysoda
5,103 posts, read 4,534,353 times
Reputation: 2323
^^^^^^^
DUDE! the most informitive post contest is over but nice job anyhow!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-09-2012, 07:52 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
7,913 posts, read 4,290,731 times
Reputation: 3316
The 2.5 acres per person is a bit pessimistic.

How much land does a person need? - agriculture farming food | Ask MetaFilter
Comes up with 0.25 acres / person

The lower figure changes the carrying capacity by a factor of ten.


Interesting material here:
number of people per acre - Permaculture - tribe.net
Scroll down to:
Food and Permaculture
by David Blume
.......................
He claims: "On approximately two acres-- half of which was on a terraced 35 degree slope--I produced enough food to feed more than 300 people (with a peak of 450 people at one point), 49 weeks a year in my fully organic CSA on the edge of Silicon Valley . If I could do it there you can do it anywhere."
......................
YMMV
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $84,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Self-Sufficiency and Preparedness
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top