When gas is $5 and continues to go up, or is not available... (farming, lake)
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It doesn't even have to be a "return" to the simpler days (although I certainly wouldn't mind that), but more along the lines of a return to less dependence upon everyone else in every other land in the world. It's just not a very wise way of doing things in my opinion.
As a small example--I go to the grocery store to buy some blueberries. Where are they from? Chile. Now, I have nothing against Chile. A beautiful country (not unlike the United States of yesteryear, economically). But come on! We have huge mountain ranges in our back yards around here where wild berries grow profusely all summer long. They could certainly be grown commercially as well. If we grow them locally, we don't have to depend on a ridiculous food supply chain from half way around the world. What a waste. I realize that it's "economics," but our economics need to be straightened out a bit, in my opinion. Relying on everyone else to save us a buck has reasonable and logical limits.
The problem with 'growing them commercially' is that you can't get people to get invested in such an enterprise - even if it means their own survival. It is cheaper to buy blueberries from Chile only because the stores barter down the producers there to sell them for ridiculously low prices - remember that your local store has a markup of 100-130% on fresh produce because it is not time-viable - and then ship them to their various stores for far less than it would cost to even produce them for "u-pick" farms here.
This weekend's class on beekeeping let me know even more about the costs of raising produce commercially - our State Ag producers want more people to become commercial beekeepers, because they can ship the beehives out of state (to California especially) to pollinate thousands of acres of fruits, nuts, and vegetables. The professor who taught the course bragged that he shipped hundreds of his beehives to California, and was paid $160 per hive - to pollinate thousands of acres of almonds, 1.5 acres per beehive. Because of the collapse of most wild bee populations, bees have become big business - and without them, many growing concerns have smaller productions or even failed productions. You can talk about 'how our grandparents lived' but they had wild pollinators, which we are suffering from a lack of currently.
My purpose in understanding/acquiring the bees is not to make a profit or ship my bees elsewhere - it is to pollinate my produce and particularly the orchard I am putting in this spring. But the fragility of the ecosphere - dependent on something as 'minor' as bee pollination - can and will impact future local production and costs. When it becomes too expensive to ship the little produce we are able to grow, much less import the fruits, vegetables, and other production from other countries, the impacts to our food storage and ultimate survival will be far greater than many can imagine.
It doesn't even have to be a "return" to the simpler days (although I certainly wouldn't mind that), but more along the lines of a return to less dependence upon everyone else in every other land in the world. It's just not a very wise way of doing things in my opinion.
As a small example--I go to the grocery store to buy some blueberries. Where are they from? Chile. Now, I have nothing against Chile. A beautiful country (not unlike the United States of yesteryear, economically). But come on! We have huge mountain ranges in our back yards around here where wild berries grow profusely all summer long. They could certainly be grown commercially as well. If we grow them locally, we don't have to depend on a ridiculous food supply chain from half way around the world. What a waste. I realize that it's "economics," but our economics need to be straightened out a bit, in my opinion. Relying on everyone else to save us a buck has reasonable and logical limits.
This dependency began with our grand-parents and great-grandparents with the rise of the railroad and shipping industries. Now Americans believe they can't survive without them and the trucking industry.
The trite concept of buying local left our society's mindset long ago. Farming has become a dirty word and considered too lowly an occupation.
By the way, some tobacco farmers in the South are switching to blueberries, but I don't think it will be long before foreign entities and people like George Soros buy them out. He, and others, have stepped-up efforts to acquire US farmland. What that might mean for our future food supply and cost is reason for concern, IMO.
But yes you are right that families and communities could largely support themselves as they once did - only I think it could be done better. Some economists believe we should get back to that or possibly we will have no choice but to go back to it. It's certainly a way to begin weaning themselves off this dependency. It's a two-way street and also depends upon consumers. If the demand for local is there, folks will step up to supply that demand, creating new businesses and jobs.
I think you need to remember, even when the USSR fell, things went on quite normally in many ways. So I'm not thinking in terms of Road Warrior, more like the Great Depression. Food lines, massive unemployment in the cities, living in crates and boxes. But even during the Depression, 75% or more were employed. My guess is that we will eventually get hit with massive inflation, and as a result, gasoline, food, and other basic commodities will get expensive, because of the devaluation of the US Dollar.
Actually the US dollar has heldup pretty well if one looks at world currency which it is measured agianst. Commodies liefood and gasolie are most effected by deamnd. Demand is growing and we are not the real ones consumig at the greatest increasig rates.That si why inflatio of basic measure goods has not increased .If inflation gets t be a problem then interest rates will be raised byt eh FED. But not rates are at record lows and still no real inflation.Now if we see conditions like the mid 70's recession where gasoline is just not avialble to meet deamnd then i will effect everything needig energy to prodcue. Inflation got to like 13.1% then.We actually need to do what ever we can now to increase crude supplies and get it to refinries i cheapest way because it doesn't happen overnite. Bercause the demand in emrging coutnries is going to keep growing driving demand and price higher especially has wolrd markets recover.We are likely to keep suffering unstable supplies like now with iran in the future and it can get much worse. Rememebr the long lines and staions running out in the 70;s were from only a 15% reduction in the supply then because of the embargo.
My purpose in understanding/acquiring the bees is not to make a profit or ship my bees elsewhere - it is to pollinate my produce and particularly the orchard I am putting in this spring.
We considered doing this when we put in an orchard 4 years ago. Ultimately we decided to hold off and see what happens because 1) we had no concrete evidence the local wild bee population was insufficient, 2) it seemed like such a hassle, and 3) we decided a first step would be planting a bee garden within a couple hundred yards of the orchard if action was required.
Nature took its course and we didn't have to do anything. In fact, we probably aided growth in the local wild bee population which, IMO, should be the ultimate goal. Commercial beekeepers have self-interest in keeping that dependency going. Don't always believe the hype.
Just another perspective...
Last edited by scarlet_ohara; 03-12-2012 at 01:36 PM..
This dependency began with our grand-parents and great-grandparents with the rise of the railroad and shipping industries. Now Americans believe they can't survive without them and the trucking industry.
The trite concept of buying local left our society's mindset long ago. Farming has become a dirty word and considered too lowly an occupation.
By the way, some tobacco farmers in the South are switching to blueberries, but I don't think it will be long before foreign entities and people like George Soros buy them out. He, and others, have stepped-up efforts to acquire US farmland. What that might mean for our future food supply and cost is reason for concern, IMO.
But yes you are right that families and communities could largely support themselves as they once did - only I think it could be done better. Some economists believe we should get back to that or possibly we will have no choice but to go back to it. It's certainly a way to begin weaning themselves off this dependency. It's a two-way street and also depends upon consumers. If the demand for local is there, folks will step up to supply that demand, creating new businesses and jobs.
All very true. Sadly, a prime motivator in our society is saving a buck, and more generally, our world revolves around money and maximizing profits. And to an extent, the minimization of the need to do real work. In my opinion, that philosophy has many drawbacks in many diverse regards.
We considered doing this when we put in an orchard 4 years ago. Ultimately we decided to hold off and see what happens because 1) we had no concrete evidence the local wild bee population was insufficient, 2) it seemed like such a hassle, and 3) we decided a first step would be planting a bee garden within a couple hundred yards of the orchard if action was required.
Nature took its course and we didn't have to do anything. In fact, we probably aided growth in the local wild bee population which, IMO, should be the ultimate goal. Commercial beekeepers have self-interest in keeping that dependency going. Don't always believe the hype.
Just another perspective...
We have a very limited bee population here; primarily because there are so few places for them to nest and build their hives. We have some pollinators - bumblebees, etc - but nowhere near what I became used to in SC, with hummingbirds, butterflies, wasps, yellowjackets, my blue wasps (that ate the black widows) and even carpenter bees. Here- it's very windy, few trees, and a lot of open and hilly prairie. So my gardens have not done as well, and neither have my flowers. The 'bee boost' of a hive or two will help not only my garden and new orchard, but my neighbors' as well. If they swarm or go wild - hurray for them!
One fella I spoke to has had a beehive - single - on his brother's 160 acre farm for 8 years. They have never swarmed, never left the hive, never stopped producing honey... so I am skeptical of a lot of the "professional" beekeepers' claims that you have to replace the queen every two years, you have to build more hives every other year, etc.
But what the heck - we use at least 50 lbs of honey a year, and my son makes mead in Nevada... there are uses for the production!
If we're going to use that much honey, I'd rather have it accessible and not have to be concerned with fluctuating prices, overly or 'secretly' processed or blended (with sugar syrup or imports) - and ingesting local honey can help with allergies. Even bee venom is supposed to help arthritis and auto-immune diseases (both of which I have) so experimentation on my own is not out of the question... I do not fear the bees, nor am I allergic to them, so I'm kinda looking forward to it.
My kid found a hollowed out palm tree stump and put it on a pole -- for no good reason, and the next thing we knew, there was a bee hive living in it. Now the other son has built a bee hive and hoping that some bees move in. He's been reading up and hoping that at least some bee swarm will check out the hive he carefully made them. The other hive still seems happy in their palm tree stump on a pole.
I wonder about if there would ever be a prolonged interruption of gas supply (can think of at least a few scenarios) how rural & farm folks would get their machinery running, let alone their vehicles. And getting to town for provisions, etc. As you say, farmers can barter and would be alright. But the ruralists who are rural for no real reason other than to live remote??
I have no idea if this could come to pass, but it seems like it could bring our nation down pretty fast, so what's the backup plan?
"Bring our nation down pretty fast"...pay attention.
"Bring our nation down pretty fast"...pay attention.
That's the plan.
True. And putting masses of people in centralized locations makes them easier to control - with everything from food shipments to rebellions. It was the Swamp Fox and his followers who terrified the British - partially the fear of the unknown, but partially because they refused to "fight fair"; i.e., line up neatly like well-organized gentlemen and be faithfully slaughtered, pro forma.
The best way to group the masses is to limit their transportation abilities, and concentrate resources in only certain areas. Then you gradually withdraw the resources, keep them stirred up with opposing ideologies, and let them kill each other off. Those who survive will have needs that can be more easily supplied, and those who are left will be more easily controlled. I know quite a few people who talk at length about "freedom" and "liberty" - but their massive dependence on the status quo makes them more apt to be Quislings, turning in their neighbors for an extra loaf of bread or a position in the power structure.
I have been privy to some intense backroom discussions in State Capitols and Washington, DC, and the feelings that "the elected representatives of the people" have towards their constituents is not what you see on TV or hear on talk radio. No matter their politics, they come together with the same idea - "what can we do and get away with that the people won't notice - or how can we make them fanatically support an untenable idea?" It's like watching a play production come together - who plays what parts, who is assigned what talking points, all for the mutual profit of those behind the curtains. The lives - and deaths - of their constituents do not matter to them - what matters is who pays the most for their votes. Decent and honest people who manage to get elected to office are herded into the game, either by coercion or threats. One young lawyer was on a Judiciary Committee, and stood up against the status quo, foursquare on the Constitution - and his compadres from both parties went after him both privately and in the press, ridiculing him and calling him a 'loon' and a 'fanatic' and telling him privately to fall in line or become unelected. Most people have no idea of the pressures that are brought to bear on their elected officials to 'follow the game plan'.
Whether it's higher fuel prices, biofuels, jobs, housing, health care, or food, there is a plan - and it isn't to make everyone free, productive, independent, and healthily competitive.
Not only for those who live rural or semi-rural, but for those who need a vehicle to get to work, how is this gas thing going to play our when the SHTF?
Where is the safest type of place to live, if gas is unaffordable or cannot for any reason be delivered? Also, gas pumps require electricity...and in power outages there is none....
Check out Joel Skousen Strategic Relocation 2nd Editdion Some of his lectures are on YouTube as well.
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I do not fear the bees, nor am I allergic to them, so I'm kinda looking forward to it.
