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Old 04-25-2012, 10:01 PM
 
Location: Interior AK
4,728 posts, read 5,391,697 times
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Libertarianism is a social & political designation, not an economic one. You can have Capitalist Libertarians (private ownership of the means of production) and Socialist Libertarians (communal ownership of the means of production) -- the only thing the two have in common economically is the consensus that the government should have little or no involvement. Anarchy (the absence of any State) and true Free Market Capitalism ( the absence of outside market controls) can occur simultaneously; but again, Anarchism is a social & political designation, not an economic one... it is entirely possible for a non-State faction to exert market controls in an Anarchist society (i.e. extortion, racketeering, supply domination, etc).

It's common for folks to get social, political and economic designations mixed up because quite a few tend to coincide frequently because they are mutually supportive functions... nevertheless, they are different and can occur in a multitude of different combinations. So, when researching an area for strategic relocation purposes, make sure you correctly identify each category and don't make assumptions.
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Old 04-25-2012, 10:03 PM
 
Location: Nebraska
4,179 posts, read 5,782,915 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
By the way, Somalia is not pure capitalism. Where did you get the idea that capitalism is synonymous with lawlessness and barbarism? Somalia ain't free market. It's about 90% anarchy. Not the same.
The problem with many people is that they confuse "libertarian" with "Capitalism" as well as "Anarchism". These philosophies may have similar characteristics, but they are NOT equal. Any Randian scholar knows how Ayn Rand despised both anarchists and capitalists - the former for denying that there has to be any law, and the latter for being cowards about true laissez-faire capitalism. She didn't think much of the 'libertarians' either; they fell far short of the minimal-government she envisioned.

Rand on Capitalism -
"Capitalism is a social system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which all property is privately owned.
The recognition of individual rights entails the banishment of physical force from human relationships: basically, rights can be violated only by means of force. In a capitalist society, no man or group may initiate the use of physical force against others. The only function of the government, in such a society, is the task of protecting man’s rights, i.e., the task of protecting him from physical force; the government acts as the agent of man’s right of self-defense, and may use force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use; thus the government is the means of placing the retaliatory use of force under objective control."


Rand on Anarchism -
"Anarchy, as a political concept, is a naive floating abstraction: . . . a society without an organized government would be at the mercy of the first criminal who came along and who would precipitate it into the chaos of gang warfare. But the possibility of human immorality is not the only objection to anarchy: even a society whose every member were fully rational and faultlessly moral, could not function in a state of anarchy; it is the need of objective laws and of an arbiter for honest disagreements among men that necessitates the establishment of a government."


Rand on Libertarianism (the political philosophy that insists that it was founded on Randian philosophy)

"Q: What do you think of the Libertarian movement? [FHF: “The Moratorium on Brains,” 1971]
AR: All kinds of people today call themselves “libertarians,” especially something calling itself the New Right, which consists of hippies, except that they’re anarchists instead of collectivists. But of course, anarchists are collectivists. Capitalism is the one system that requires absolute objective law, yet they want to combine capitalism and anarchism. That is worse than anything the New Left has proposed. It’s a mockery of philosophy and ideology. They sling slogans and try to ride on two bandwagons. They want to be hippies, but don’t want to preach collectivism, because those jobs are already taken. But anarchism is a logical outgrowth of the anti-intellectual side of collectivism. I could deal with a Marxist with a greater chance of reaching some kind of understanding, and with much greater respect. The anarchist is the scum of the intellectual world of the left, which has given them up. So the right picks up another leftist discard. That’s the Libertarian movement. "



So based on a strict understanding of theoretical functionality (using Randian philosophy as a module) - the Somalians do not have social stability any more than the US or any other quasi-free country. The one thing that we DO still have in the US (still and so far - trembling on the edge here) is the ability to live apart from these influences, not be completely enmeshed by them - or surrounded by them and eventually overcome.


I maintain that the best place to be when the SHTF is - away. Away from all of the libertarians, anarchists, capitalists, Marxists, communists, and socialists who seek to pervert and force the residents to their chosen philosophy, whether against their will or not. You can find that "away" in a corner of a state where no one ever goes; you are not likely to find it in another country that has a longer and more turbulent history of everything from guerrilla warfare between warlords to supercilious governmental controls - and where you will stick out like a mutilated proximal phalange.
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Old 04-26-2012, 02:01 PM
 
Location: Where the mountains touch the sky
2,845 posts, read 2,338,886 times
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Wow! Looks like Maryland is off the list of places to go and become self sufficent selling produce or other farm goods you raise yourself to sell.

Another way to kill US farmers: Seize their bank accounts on phony charges | Food Freedom News

This source is a little over the top, but the basic information is pretty scary.
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Old 04-26-2012, 03:01 PM
 
Location: 125 Years Too Late...
6,758 posts, read 5,699,686 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSilvertip View Post
Wow! Looks like Maryland is off the list of places to go and become self sufficent selling produce or other farm goods you raise yourself to sell.

Another way to kill US farmers: Seize their bank accounts on phony charges | Food Freedom News

This source is a little over the top, but the basic information is pretty scary.
That is scary. Another example of what our "friends" in high places are doing.
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Old 04-26-2012, 03:41 PM
 
Location: Interior AK
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Yup, another reason to look very closely at the laws (at all levels) governing your particular location and intended activities when deciding where you want to set up home and business. After doing a ton of research, I gave up any illusions about starting a tiny local farm stand, or operating a CSA, to sell my homestead surpluses to my neighbors and provide a little income. Between federal & state regulations, licenses, permits, inspections, business and personal tax considerations, mandatory insurances (and all the rules the insurance company has!) and some weird accounting mandates... yeah, I'm so not getting in that expensive, invasive and grueling nightmare just to earn a few bucks while my neighbors get some fresh eggs, milk and lettuce!

Some states still protect/exempt small-scale, direct-to-consumer farm producers as long as they aren't heinously violating some federal FDA/USDA "food safety" regulation, but don't count on it. Looks like the feds have found a way to close that little loophole by targeting the business operations and income since the actual product is still protected by the state. That crafty bit of legislation won't just nail the farmers to the cross, but any small business owner, especially those that sell their own home-crafted goods or provide similar services. So much for the original American ideal of making a little extra income off the homestead activities and your personal skills
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Old 04-27-2012, 05:08 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
21,917 posts, read 28,835,974 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MissingAll4Seasons View Post
... Some states still protect/exempt small-scale, direct-to-consumer farm producers as long as they aren't heinously violating some federal FDA/USDA "food safety" regulation, but don't count on it. Looks like the feds have found a way to close that little loophole by targeting the business operations and income since the actual product is still protected by the state. That crafty bit of legislation won't just nail the farmers to the cross, but any small business owner, especially those that sell their own home-crafted goods or provide similar services. So much for the original American ideal of making a little extra income off the homestead activities and your personal skills
Some towns in our area have been passing 'food sovereignty' laws to help small farmers.

But we just saw a guy [who was protected in such a manner] then he went outside of that jurisdiction to market raw milk. He got hammered.
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Old 04-27-2012, 05:48 PM
 
Location: southwest Nebraska and northwest Kansas
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Apparently Ayn Rand isn't who we should be looking to for civics lessons.
That is not even remotely what a libertarian is...
For that matter, capitalism is an economic system, not a "social system."
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:21 PM
 
Location: Interior AK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper View Post
Some towns in our area have been passing 'food sovereignty' laws to help small farmers.

But we just saw a guy [who was protected in such a manner] then he went outside of that jurisdiction to market raw milk. He got hammered.
Yep, I cannot sell any dairy products, period. Some folks are tempting fate with goat shares, but I'm not risking the whole raw milk debacle and refuse the triple my off-grid electrical system to get a licensable pasteurizer and refrigerator. Can't sell meat products either... but I can sell live animals to my neighbors, and then butcher it for them as a separate service; but I can't do that for the Roadhouse. I can sell eggs and produce to my neighbors, but not to the Roadhouse or the Trading Post. Since the Roadhouse has a restaurant it's an indirect sale, and the Trading Post is retail... both of which completely nullify the small producer exemptions. Of course, folks could buy any of these things from me and then take it to the Roadhouse to be prepared for them, and I can sell my produce right in front of the Trading Post. Bureaucracy

However, if I lived in one of tribal villages, and only sold within that village, there would be none of these restrictions even though I am not native... because the village is sovereign. But, I can't go sell my "restricted" stuff in the village, even though they are sovereign and want it, because I live outside the village limits so it's considered "international trade". And that little weirdness also applies to some of the non-food products I could sell to those villages... I'd have to pay "international export" taxes and get an import/export license. More bureaucracy

The impacts of proximity to other countries and sovereign nations are something else to consider in strategic relocation... I was amazed about what I found out about trading with the nearby tribal entities, forget about Canada!
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:26 PM
 
Location: Boca Raton
9,342 posts, read 16,618,926 times
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Default The sky is falling....

Quote:
Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy View Post
I'm new to this forum but I do indeed believe that there will come a time, likely sooner rather than later, when the excrement will hit the rotating cooling device. My thought is that it is likely to be a total economic collapse, rather than some catastrophic weather phenomenon.

In the event of a total economic collapse, in theory, money would become worthless. It's happened before. We'd wind up in a situation where humans have to survive rather than live in their modern comforts. Some might say "well I'm stockpiling GOLD"... okay, gold will also be useless. What the heck do we use gold for anyway? It may have a lot of nifty properties that make it a good all-purpose metal for a lot of uses, but if someone showed up and flashed a shiny gold ingot, telling me he'd trade it to me for a supply of food I had grown, I'd be like "What the heck am I supposed to use this little paperweight for?!"

Anyway, with that being the case, what would you say is the best place to set up a home, to prepare for a scenario of SHTF? I have a hard time comprehending how to do it because of one topic: PROPERTY TAXES. It's easy enough to find a place where timber is plentiful and the ground is sufficiently arable so as to grow your own food and raise your own livestock, but I know of no places in the USA where there are no property taxes. It seems 100% totally and completely impossible to live totally independently, and subsist on your own without having to answer (somehow) to someone else. Therefore, I'm not sure just how well America in and of itself is suited for a SHTF scenario.

But maybe you know something I don't know. If you don't know a specific location that you'd consider best for preparing to survive, perhaps you could talk about the type of location that you feel would be best.
You could search some of the pre-Obama election threads on here, BC there were many on this topic. Many also said they would leave the country if BO was elected, so maybe their places are now vacant.
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:38 PM
Status: " All Shall Be Well; And All Manner of Things Shall Be Well" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: Hunkering down atop Shasta
6,856 posts, read 6,589,881 times
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If Ayn Rand couldn't keep her hypocritical little fingers out of the Social Security pie, then how many can? Anyone who thinks they are going to remain free of govt assistance as they grow older and their health worsens is probably fooling themselves. Very few people can be totally self sufficient, and it's pretty hard to just say no to emergency care when you have a heart attack, or no to longterm treatments for cancer as you lie in pain.

Perhaps we should add, "reasonably close access to medical care" on the list of necessities for a homestead.

But then we get back to that whole idea of how bad things will get, how much preparation is necessary. Do we plan for a society without any modern medical care? Peach twig poultices and shamans shaking rattles just don't cut it when you're turning blue in the face and gasping for breath.

One can prepare for a Great Depression scenario, but it's quite another thing to invest heavily into a total crash of civilization, imo. The former is reasonable and needn't bankrupt anyone if planned out with family and friends, but the latter is unfeasible except for very wealthy people.
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