Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
It's worth mentioning again that if there were a major "event" that caused social unrest or refugees fleeing the cities, a farmstead in the track of the refugees is as good as gone as soon as something happens, even if it is a fair distance from the big cities. To prepare for this aspect, one has to look at the likely routes such individuals (refugees, marauders, thugs, etc) would use--the path of least resistance for them over hundreds of miles. After reading a book that was suggested on another thread, my eyes have been opened a bit more to this; I understood the concept before, but hadn't considered it well enough and hadn't taken certain factors into consideration. I'm tweaking my plans because of it. Of course, maybe there never will be "flight from the cities," but it's just one less thing to worry about if you take it into account and one more factor that can increase the probability of survival in a survival situation. But it's a bit more complex than most folks think it is.
Very true. Hurricane evacuations from FL thru SC proved that to us. You'd be surprised how far some people will go to get away - or to get a handout, or even to take what they can get. Some folks had gas cans that they carried with them, because they knew that most gas stations along their route would be empty by the time they got there - when the gas in their vehicles and the cans ran out, that's where they stopped. Consider how far you can go on a tank of gas, and double it, because there are a lot of variables in there. That's how far someone fleeing an epidemic or a social uprising can go, too. Also, it's not just the interstates that will be clogged, and those exits - it's the off-beat national highways and state roads that people will take. Road atlases are plentiful and so are Garmins and other GPS devices - someone who has a reason for not riding the interstate (either self-protection or something more sinister) will find another way.
Bus routes and train routes are also something to consider as escape mechanisms/potential hazards. I lived near a train track for many years, and saw many people use them as walking paths to get from town to town, and there are still those who 'hitch a ride'. People will ride a bus to loot (people from Detroit and Chicago went to New Orleans because it was a looting mecca 3 days before Katrina hit) or will ride a bus as far as they can, then start walking - after first getting whatever they need - however they have to - at their disembarkation stop.
People who flee don't always flee blindly; they will, sooner or later, have a destination in mind, be it "Let's go to Grandma's house" or "I heard Denver was still OK" - if you are between two highly populated or well-resourced areas, even if you are slightly off the track, there is a greater potential for your safety to be compromised.
I'm sure you have a handful of anecdotal stories about individuals, but most people need to be exceptionally healthy and strong to cut wood without power tools, and to haul the wood by hand (unless one is lucky enough to have horses and cart or sledge, chains, etc).
Who said anything about without power tools?
It's not anecdotal, it's how most people live up here, and it's no more work than any other chore.
Even without power tools, you just use your brain, don't cut anything you can't move, buck it at the felling site, split it at the felling site if need be. You can't tell me that split cordwood is hugely heavy or takes a huge amount of effort to haul out. You're not going to be dropping a California Red wood for your winter firewood, go pick several smaller trees and take them, and just how much firewood do you think you need, we got by on about 4 cords this past winter. Even when we lived for two winters in a wall tent we got by on 10 cords a year, in the Alaskan Interior, that was about 20 decent sized trees, not huge, but decent, but it's all White Spruce, Aspen, or Paper birch (which are the best) nothing with huge BTU content, with some decent Maple or Oak I could probably get by on half that amount.
Very true. Hurricane evacuations from FL thru SC proved that to us. You'd be surprised how far some people will go to get away - or to get a handout, or even to take what they can get. Some folks had gas cans that they carried with them, because they knew that most gas stations along their route would be empty by the time they got there - when the gas in their vehicles and the cans ran out, that's where they stopped. Consider how far you can go on a tank of gas, and double it, because there are a lot of variables in there. That's how far someone fleeing an epidemic or a social uprising can go, too. Also, it's not just the interstates that will be clogged, and those exits - it's the off-beat national highways and state roads that people will take. Road atlases are plentiful and so are Garmins and other GPS devices - someone who has a reason for not riding the interstate (either self-protection or something more sinister) will find another way.
Bus routes and train routes are also something to consider as escape mechanisms/potential hazards. I lived near a train track for many years, and saw many people use them as walking paths to get from town to town, and there are still those who 'hitch a ride'. People will ride a bus to loot (people from Detroit and Chicago went to New Orleans because it was a looting mecca 3 days before Katrina hit) or will ride a bus as far as they can, then start walking - after first getting whatever they need - however they have to - at their disembarkation stop.
People who flee don't always flee blindly; they will, sooner or later, have a destination in mind, be it "Let's go to Grandma's house" or "I heard Denver was still OK" - if you are between two highly populated or well-resourced areas, even if you are slightly off the track, there is a greater potential for your safety to be compromised.
What I always have a hard time with when I consider these excellent points, is balancing the need to be near jobs for the here and now, and being far enough away from population centers to avoid future craziness, as much as possible. The area I live in now is a rural area outside a very small city - and we are on the interstate a couple of hours north of NYC. Not exactly the best place to be, to say the least.
WOW! I have to guess then that my daugher bought the Ideal place in southern Missouri, 27 acres mostly flat crossed fenced pasture land, a good stream running through it with a nice fishing pond 100' X 200' in the middle of it, and a good deep well for domestic use , nice line of older tree's for fire wood, 40' X 80' barn for the animals, and a machine shop! , I can fix anything now. All I need to do is get out there and put in a R V pad and I can also call it home after i get through digging the tornado shelter !
One set of my grandparents were farming in Missouri, as had their ancestors going back to 1790. But when the Dust Bowl came, they had to leave.
My other grandparents were farming in Oklahoma. They also had to leave with the Dust Bowl.
It's not anecdotal, it's how most people live up here, and it's no more work than any other chore.
Even without power tools, you just use your brain, don't cut anything you can't move, buck it at the felling site, split it at the felling site if need be. You can't tell me that split cordwood is hugely heavy or takes a huge amount of effort to haul out. You're not going to be dropping a California Red wood for your winter firewood, go pick several smaller trees and take them, and just how much firewood do you think you need, we got by on about 4 cords this past winter. Even when we lived for two winters in a wall tent we got by on 10 cords a year, in the Alaskan Interior, that was about 20 decent sized trees, not huge, but decent, but it's all White Spruce, Aspen, or Paper birch (which are the best) nothing with huge BTU content, with some decent Maple or Oak I could probably get by on half that amount.
There is a lot to be said for 'Coppicing' too.
I hate splitting firewood, so we got a stove that can take full pieces of firewood without any need for splitting.
One set of my grandparents were farming in Missouri, as had their ancestors going back to 1790. But when the Dust Bowl came, they had to leave.
My other grandparents were farming in Oklahoma. They also had to leave with the Dust Bowl.
Drought is bad.
Drought IS bad - but you have to be able to mitigate it. That means not being solely dependent on obvious water resources, be they town/state or open waters like creeks, ponds, rivers, and streams. "dry-land" farming is practical, but so is being able to dig a well and have the water pumped from a good and protected aquifer without dependence on electricity or power that others provide. Aquifer levels vary depending on location; you might be able to tap into a groundwater well at 10 feet, but in a drought situation it will run dry because the actual aquifer under where you live is 100 feet down. Where reliable aquifers are near the surface, tapping into them is preferable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by emilybh
This is a good listen
If you look for on YouTube, Joel Skousen, there are other experts with good info on this subject that come up too.
That was a very good reference, emilybh, and a good starting point for those who aren't sure of what they want or where they want to be. Again, though, I noted that he talked about "mitigation" (one of my pet studies) - what can you do to mitigate impacts of destructive forces? In the case of the Yellowstone Caldera, probably not too much. However, in the case of economic collapse, military action, or pandemic, 'living small' is a good mitigation tactic. What can you do for yourself, and what can you do without, in the event of any SHTF scenario?
Ultimately, the place to be in a SHTF scenario is where you can handle and mitigate the forces that surround and may impinge upon,as well as the integral properties of, the land to suit your needs. Sure, there may be blizzards - do you have the ability to stay warm? There may be tornadoes - do you have a structure that is protected where you can store your goods, and even live in the case of an F-5 totalling everything above-ground? Do you dread earthquakes, but think hurricanes are no big deal? Live where earthquakes are a minimal problem, and where your own resources and abilities can support you in the event of a hurricane.
Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper
There is a lot to be said for 'Coppicing' too.
I hate splitting firewood, so we got a stove that can take full pieces of firewood without any need for splitting.
Another thing to note is that most people have forgotten how to split wood with an awl and mallet. Also, our stove is small and takes smaller pieces of wood; but then we live in an area where there is much 'small' wood to be gathered. Unprotected trees rarely grow to "reach-around" size, because the wind here is so intense all year long that the trees are often split, splintered, or broken-off before they get that large; coppices naturally form and are harvested in turn. We are also so low in humidity that wood rapidly dehydrates and cures in the wind; you can have cured wood in as little as 6 months.
Again, different areas have different soils, climates, and problems; being aware of them and knowing your own ability to mitigate these problems is a key to where to live. JMHO.
Location: where you sip the tea of the breasts of the spinsters of Utica
8,297 posts, read 14,161,809 times
Reputation: 8105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir
Who said anything about without power tools?
It's not anecdotal, it's how most people live up here, and it's no more work than any other chore.
Even without power tools, you just use your brain, don't cut anything you can't move, buck it at the felling site, split it at the felling site if need be. You can't tell me that split cordwood is hugely heavy or takes a huge amount of effort to haul out. You're not going to be dropping a California Red wood for your winter firewood, go pick several smaller trees and take them, and just how much firewood do you think you need, we got by on about 4 cords this past winter. Even when we lived for two winters in a wall tent we got by on 10 cords a year, in the Alaskan Interior, that was about 20 decent sized trees, not huge, but decent, but it's all White Spruce, Aspen, or Paper birch (which are the best) nothing with huge BTU content, with some decent Maple or Oak I could probably get by on half that amount.
Well of course it's reasonably easy to do with power tools and vehicles, but the OP wanted to know what would be necessary for a full collapse of civilization - and that would mean no fuel unless you have a gigantic alcohol production facility running (you have to get through gigantic amounts of bureaucracy and taxation to get something like that started legally).
As for doing it by hand, it takes strength and endurance to fell trees with an axe, saw off the branches, saw it into rounds, then easiest of all is splitting it. You need to haul it, chances are that your woodlot will be a distance from your house. We're talking about what ...... I suppose 4-5 cords per winter in the cold regions I warned about, if the house is well-insulated.
Can it be done ...... yes, if those who need to do it are healthy. Unfortunately, as we age the chances of getting some chronic illness increases exponentially. It used to be in the past that others in the community would get together sometimes to bring a little chopped wood for the "old widder", but I suspect that wouldn't happen much in a modern SHTF situation, especially if the widow is a relative newcomer to the area.
Basically the situation is as I stated - stay away from regions that have long cold winters, or else have a family with some strong healthy young males to chop wood, haul water, and grow crops. (by the way, this is why people in thirdworld countries are so eager to make large families).
Well of course it's reasonably easy to do with power tools and vehicles, but the OP wanted to know what would be necessary for a full collapse of civilization - and that would mean no fuel unless you have a gigantic alcohol production facility running (you have to get through gigantic amounts of bureaucracy and taxation to get something like that started legally).
In the context of the OP, he mentions economic collapse, not necessarily collapse of civilization, but where does he say that we're going back to the stone age. Never heard of electrically powered chainsaws and winches? Or like they did in the good old days, mechanical mills powered by water. Will these solar panels, and water wheels stop functioning because the dollar is worthless?
There's no "gigantic amounts of bureaucracy" in starting your own personal still, BATFE will issue a small fuel producer permit (under 10,000 proof gallons per year) and it's free. Whether your state has any additional requirements is up to the person to find out. It's not a huge amount of bureaucracy, and if the situation the OP mentions comes to pass who's going to enforce permitting?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woof
As for doing it by hand, it takes strength and endurance to fell trees with an axe, saw off the branches, saw it into rounds, then easiest of all is splitting it. You need to haul it, chances are that your woodlot will be a distance from your house. We're talking about what ...... I suppose 4-5 cords per winter in the cold regions I warned about, if the house is well-insulated.
Your wood lot would be as far from your house as you put it. If you put it a couple of miles away, that's bad planning, if you build you house in your wood lot that's bad planning, somewhere in between that's an easy walk, where the lot is not a hazard, is good planning. You need to haul firewood, whether that's finished bucked and split or 8" lengths is up to you and your abilities.
What do you consider "cold regions" will determine how many cords you use, as will what "well insulated" means I have friends in Washington who use more wood than we do, but they're not as well insulated, and have higher average internal temperature needs.
If you're relying on strength and endurance to fell tree's you're doing it wrong, it's like riding a bicycle, you can get from point A to point B in 20 minutes or 4 hours, it takes as much effort as you want to or can put into it, the athletes of lumberjacking can slice through a 24" DBH tree (or more) in about 30 seconds with an axe, I can't, I won't even try, but this spring one of the locals 10 year old kids hand cut his first 24"er it took him all day, but it amounts to about a third of a cord of firewood, are you saying that a 10 year old can do something that an able yet even infirm bodied adult can't do? People have lived up to ripe old ages using firewood as their only fuel source, how did that happen? Well they collected the slash and offcuts from people, or found fallen branches or cut them. A cord of wood is a cord of wood, whether it's in 1" rounds, or 36" rounds.
One final point I'd like to mention, if you can't get firewood, you can't tend or harvest fields either. How you going to harvest that 4 acre field of wheat if you're so physically infirm as to not be able to get your firewood in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woof
Can it be done ...... yes, if those who need to do it are healthy. Unfortunately, as we age the chances of getting some chronic illness increases exponentially. It used to be in the past that others in the community would get together sometimes to bring a little chopped wood for the "old widder", but I suspect that wouldn't happen much in a modern SHTF situation, especially if the widow is a relative newcomer to the area.
As mentioned above, how you going to feed yourself in the scenario illustrated? How's the "old widder" going to tend her fields and crops? Firewood is the last of her worries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woof
Basically the situation is as I stated - stay away from regions that have long cold winters, or else have a family with some strong healthy young males to chop wood, haul water, and grow crops. (by the way, this is why people in thirdworld countries are so eager to make large families).
Just because you say so, doesn't make it a fact, take it from someone who does actually get firewood. It's not any more difficult that any number of other activities that might need to be done in the scenario the OP is discussing, if you can't manage firewood, you can't manage to survive without assistance, so you're dying in that scenario without the help of others, who must be charitable enough to provide for you. If you can't buck firewood you can't grind wheat, if you can't fell a tree, you can't harvest that 4 acre field. Saying firewood will be an issue is a non-issue, there are many things that can be done to lighten that load (including coppicing like FB stated). Because the same effort and physicality needs to be expended on hauling water, tending crops, herding animals, harvesting, if you can't supply that physicality for firewood, then the rest also cannot be done, and you're dead meat, or a drain on your relatives and neighbors. Oh and like I said it's 15 days of about 5 hours a day time, with tools, it would be 30 days of maybe 8 hours a day without power tools, and it's at a time of the year when there's nothing else to do, the grounds still too cold for planting, and any winter crops are on their last legs, so it's 30 days of doing nothing, or 30 days of getting firewood. However if you want to see firewood as an issue, go right ahead, you should also consider that if you have an issue getting in your own firewood, what else will you have an issue doing, for instance anything that leads to a self-sufficient lifestyle without motorized equipment.
We consume about 3 1/5 cords of wood each year in our home.
Since moving onto my land in 2005 and beginning the construction of our home, I have yet to cut down a single tree. I have pushed a few over using a dozer or tractor. But so far I not had any need to actually cut down any tree.
We see so many blow-downs each year that if I were to harvest 1/10 of the dead wood on my land, it would easily account for a dozen cords of firewood each year.
I do not split my firewood.
If I were to go out to 'cut down' trees for firewood I would coppice. Using a hand pruning saw and lopping shears is plenty to get the job done.
We have a far greater threat from saplings. Turn your back on a piece of land for 3 to 5 years and when you return to it, the saplings are thick as thieves. You will have saplings so thick you can not walk between them. The bush-hog is a great device
All that being said, I do agree that for folks who live up North [where it gets cold], those guys need to be careful and plan ahead for winter. I would never want to live up there. It gets crazy cold up there. But for us folks living in these Southern regions, it is not so bad. Not at all.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
