Would Canada be affected when the SHTF happens in America?

[Paint It Pink]

If the US goes down, it'll take several others down with it, and even more down a few notches at the very least.

So yeah, Canada will be affected. Even more so if people are trying to flee the US and go into Canada.

[monkeywrenching]

Originally Posted by Kevdawgg

Will Canada be affected when the U.S. economy collapses, and then the SHTF happens? Hopefully Canada won't be dragged down with the U.S.

SHTF= Sht Hits the Fan. (Bad word). Basically means civil unrest. Not good.

If SHTF hits the USA, I think that the rest of the world will be effected.

[kevike]

Originally Posted by Zoisite

Canada isn't a burden to America, it never has been and never will be. Canada has more natural resources and is in better economic, social and political shape than America is and Canada imports more goods from America than America does from Canada. Canada is America's biggest and most supportive trade partner providing employment for millions of Americans. That is to say, Canada supports America's economy more than any other country in the world as a trade partner and America has become dependent on that trade - most especially America is totally dependent on Canada's oil as it gets more oil from Canada than it does from any other country.

So yeah, if the SHTF in America and America is no longer able to import or export goods and services to and from Canada like usual it will create an economic burden on Canada and American refugees escaping into Canada would also create a burden for Canada. However, it shouldn't have too great a negative impact on Canada's trade with all the other countries that Canada trades with.

More to the point though, if for some reason America is no longer able to import/export goods and services with its most supportive trade partner then it stands to reason it also won't be able to do as much import/export of goods and services to other countries who are further away. If anything, such a situation should create more trade for Canada with other countries who presently rely on America for trade goods. That would increase Canada's economy and cause a domino effect for America and make things much worse for America economically.

So you better hope and pray the S does not HTF in America because if it does Canada is going to come out even further on top of the heap than it already is now while America will get mired further down at the bottom of the heap.

.

1. Canada has more natural resources.

"CRS also reveals that America’s combined recoverable natural gas, oil, and coal endowment is the largest on Earth. In fact, America’s recoverable resources are far larger than those of Saudi Arabia (3rd), China (4th), and Canada (6th) combined. And, that’s without including America’s absolutely immense oil shale and methane hydrates deposits."

Also doesn't include the incomparable wind (Great Plains) and solar (Southwest) energy potential available in the US.

Energy is the only natural resource worth worrying about. The US has all the water, trees, minerals, etc. it will ever need.

Guess the Country with the World’s Largest Energy Reserves - By Greg Pollowitz - Planet Gore - National Review Online
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.c...6-9184752cbd16



2. Canada imports more goods from America than America does from Canada.

Canada's trade surplus with the USA was over $35billion in 2011. That's $1,064 for every man, woman, and child. You're welcome.

Foreign Trade - U.S. Trade with Canada



3. America has become dependent on that trade.

In 2010 75% of Canada's exports went to the United States.
In 2011 19% of US exports went to Canada.

Actually, it looks like you are nearly entirely dependent on the US. Again, you're welcome.

Canada
Foreign Trade - U.S. Top Trading Partners


4. American refugees escaping into Canada.

The whole tenor of your post is so silly it's laughable. But thanks for your concern.

[Northern Maine Land Man]

That was likely written by somebody from Windsor, Ontario. If Detroit decides to grocery shopping across the bridge it could get messy. The other 4,000 miles of border will be OK.

An American Renewal: Nagasaki and Detroit, Before and after---AMAZING.. And what are we doing wrong?

[Mircea]

Originally Posted by Kevdawgg

Will Canada be affected when the U.S. economy collapses, and then the SHTF happens?

The US economy will not collapse, because that is not how economics or economies work. It's amazing that people waste bandwidth on such nonsense.

Not collapsing...

Mircea

Originally Posted by Nor'Eastah

The US will not have an "economic collapse". It is already going through a currency collapse, which is quite a different thing. Since the inception of the Federal Reserve in 1913, the $US has lost either 96% or 98% of its value (depending on whose figures you use).

Wow, that's a little disingenuous. And what about all of the other federal reserves?

The US Federal Reserve is a central bank. It is identical in every way to every central bank on Planet Earth. It does everything that every other central bank on Planet Earth does.

Why don't you tell people how much value all other currencies on Earth have lost in the last 150 years?

Why don't you tell people how greatly the British Pound Sterling has been devalued? The Brits have a federal reserve (and so does Canada); they just don't call it a federal reserve. They have some other fancy name for it. Since 1971, the average annual rate of Real Inflation in the US has been half that of Great Britain's.

As a point of fact, there are only two countries on Planet Earth that have had a lower rate of Real Inflation than the US since 1971.

How come you never mention that?

There are what, 196 countries? So the US and two other countries (Switzerland and Brunei) are doing better than 98.46% of all countries on Planet Earth.

Or, you could look at it the other way: 98.46% of the countries on Planet Earth are worse off than the US.

No doubt, the US Federal Reserve must be doing something right.

Actually, I'm wrong. I said "countries" but should have said currencies instead. Since many countries use the Euro, that would mean that...

...the US Dollar has retained its value better than 99.0+% of the countries on Planet Earth since 1971.

Over the period as a whole, prices have risen by around 136 times. This compares to an increase of 128 times using the old method. Thus one (decimal) penny in 1750 would have had greater purchasing power than a pound in 2002.

Since 1945 prices have risen in every year. In 2002 prices were almost 27 times higher than in 1945. By contrast, prices were lower in 1939 than in 1919.

And now, for something completely different:

In the 18 year period 1984-2002, the value of the British Pound Sterling declined 49%.

In other words, 1 Pound Sterling in 1984 was only worth 51 Pence just 18 years later.

Or, you could say that in 1984, 1 Pound Sterling was equal to 1 Pound and 98 Pence (2002 Pound Sterling).

http://www.parliament.uk/documents/c...3/rp03-082.pdf

So, who here on this forum would like to dump the Federal Reserve in favor of a central bank, like the Bank of England?

Oh c'mon people. Don't you want see your currency devalued nearly 50% in a mere 18 years?

No? Why not? Be careful what you wish for.

When people withhold information from others that would alter their perception of the event or concept, we call that Academic Dishonesty.

When you finish your BA in Economics (assuming you ever do), you'll be light-years behind me in terms of knowledge and experience [in Economics], and perhaps you can have an intelligent rational discussion based on facts, instead of intentionally withholding information from people to skew and twist how they see and perceive things.

And if you're not intentionally withholding information, then the common sense thing to do is refrain from discussing things which you obviously know nothing about.

The quarterback is toast....

Mircea

Originally Posted by Zoisite

Canada isn't a burden to America, it never has been and never will be. Canada has more natural resources and is in better economic....

That would be the wrong conclusion. Yes, O, Canada! does have vast resources, however, O Canada! lacks the Capital to develop those resources.

The problem with oil and natural gas, is that they are Capital intensive, meaning they require a tremendous amount of Capital to build the infrastructures in order to transport, process, refine and distribute the products.

There is intense competition for Capital. If O, Canada! invests money, resources and labor (Capital) into the oil and natural gas infrastructure, then were does that leave manufacturing?

See the problem? The manufacturing sector and the energy sector compete for private investment money, public investment money, labor, and all manner of other resources. That intense competition can result in the loss of your manufacturing sector.

One of the reasons single-cash-crop economies, like the oil countries, don't have any manufacturing, is because they invested all of their Capital into the energy infrastructure. O, Canada! is in danger of losing its manufacturing (and other jobs) sector.

To get around that, you can try to lure foreign investors. That would increase the pool of Capital, but there are dangers in that as well.

Originally Posted by Zoisite

..., social and political shape than America is and Canada imports more goods from America than America does from Canada.

That is in part due to the fact that O, Canada! doesn't have sufficient Capital to invest in manufacturing. However, some trade is good. O, Canada! doesn't really need its own independent auto industry for example. The arrangement now were autos are imported, and then there some auto plants in O, Canada! is beneficial to you (assuming you are an O, Canadian!).

Originally Posted by Zoisite

So yeah, if the SHTF in America and America is no longer able to import or export goods and services to and from Canada like usual it will create an economic burden on Canada and American refugees escaping into Canada would also create a burden for Canada. However, it shouldn't have too great a negative impact on Canada's trade with all the other countries that Canada trades with.

Well, if it's a Solar/Nuclear EMP event, you will go down just like the US. Instead of 30 Million O, Canadians!, after a year there'd barely be 1 Million.

In a mini-Ice Age, the growing season would be non-existent. If you recall, during the last mini-Ice Age, around 1685 or so, Colonists in the New England Colonies and in fact everywhere north of what is now Interstate 80 had a growing season of only 6 weeks.

The ground thawed just enough by the last week of June, so that you cold plant crops, but the first frost would come 6 weeks later around the 1st or 2nd Week of August and kill everything. And what you managed to harvest before then would be nothing.

Those living in the area that is now between Interstate 70 and Interstate 80, more or less Pennsylvania and New York, had about 8-10 weeks to prep, plant and harvest.

You had near famine conditions for about 11 years or so. Things were rough for other reasons as well. There were problems in Britain, and the 100 or so colonies in New England were all united briefly as one gigantic super-colony under the Dominion of New England, which then dissolved later. I don't know the exact extent of the perma-frost, but if I had to guess, I'd say it covered most of O, Canada! down to about the Great Lakes Region.

In a Nuclear Winter scenario caused by a Toba-like event, volcanic out-gassing or and asteroid strike, O, Canadians! might not have anything at all to eat, and who knows how long that would last.

So, O, Canada! is not the place you want to be for the Apocalypse.

Historically....

Mircea

[texdav]

Originally Posted by barneyg

Fixed it (if not when).

This will not happen. But if it did, of course Canada would be affected. Their housing bubble popped and the whole world was affected, some European countries that barely traded with the US were/are almost bankrupt because of it. What kind of "civil unrest" do you envision?

Not quite what happened to europae. teir problem wqas long i coming. No growth exxcept for Germany who made cutsa dn reforms i the 90's;banks highly leveraged.Bt yes vcanada would go into at elast a ressio iof not a depressio because of the size of the US economy. But its now unlikely to happen esepcailly since US banks are so liquid and there is growth.

[ognend]

Originally Posted by Mircea

The US economy will not collapse, because that is not how economics or economies work. It's amazing that people waste bandwidth on such nonsense.
When you finish your BA in Economics (assuming you ever do), you'll be light-years behind me in terms of knowledge and experience [in Economics], and perhaps you can have an intelligent rational discussion based on facts, instead of intentionally withholding information from people to skew and twist how they see and perceive things.

Mircea

Pretty pompous post, even for my standards

Anyways, what a lot of developed countries do not have and America does is the stark difference between rich and poor, the gap that keeps expanding. The rich used to be happy paying 90% in taxes just 50 years ago in the States but ever since corporations and money got hold of government, the rich have been finding ingenious ways of squeezing the poor. The poor are brainwashed, yes, people still believe in the white picket fence and all that bull but more and more people are opening their eyes to the fact that they will NEVER have the opportunity to earn as much as they glorified CEOs of the day. Every time you see JP Morgan type story of a $2 billion loss on a bet, a lot of poor people increase by a notch their resentment of the banking industry and the over compensated rich running it. Every time a handout is made off my back to someone who should properly fail in a truly capitalist society only to see them post $15 billion oin profits the next quarter, a notch goes up on the resentment indicator for a lot of struggling middle class and poor.

You don't get any of that in Canada (or a lot of other developed countries - note, Greece is NOT a developed country).

So, America's enemy is not outside of these borders, it is inside and it has to do with the continual shrinking of the middle class and increase in the size of the poverty-stricken, medically uninsured, bankrupt due to home value loss, medical problems or similar stupidity. It has to do with the increasing debt and increasing ways of squeezing the last penny out of someone who has to go into debt to provide the penny. If (a big if) that explodes, yes, Canada will be in a bad spot since their economy is dependent on the US, however, they do not have the rich-poor factor to contend with. They'll manage otherwise, it will be tough, but they'll manage.

Since you claim to have a vast knowledge of economics, there was once a well known Kenian economist, I think he was a high ranking IMF official. He wrote a piece about Kenia (his country) and in it he said, (paraphrase) - I wish IMF and the international community did not give money to Kenia. Then the Kenian people would not be beggars looking for the next handout to inevitably end up in the pockets of some corrupt official. In essence, a whole country is kept on a drip - not dead, not alive.

Sounds familiar?

The above scenario, by the way, is highly unlikely. The corporate structures have entangled themselves into the government to resemble the autocracies of former Latin American regimes with one important distinction - the illusion of democracy - much more sophisticated, no?

Hey, you are Romanian, no?

How many people in Romania got wealthy overnight? The country got sold out, the beautiful countryside is now owned by British, French, German expats who come there to live like kings with their foreign incomes. The government has all sorts of EU imposed conditions on how to run its own economy and country. Don't tell me a country with such resources, oil, timber, Black sea ports, Danube cannot survive without being a part of some fictional union. I am betting a lot of poor stayed poor still except for the new layer of rich that became rich overnight, many of them through shady deals, corruption, extortion, pure crime etc. Now these folks send their kids to Harvard, Sorbonne etc. and tomorrow, after all this is forgotten (how their Mommies and Daddies got their money) these kids will talk to you about the value of hard work, investing and saving for your whole life so when you are 60 you can enjoy yourself, you know, the new-old-borrowed Romanian dream . What's the difference between this new elite able to afford boating down to Greece just to grab a meal because they love Greek food so much and the old political elite of pre-EU times?

I am betting the society over there already is seeing increased obesity, heart disease, everyone is frantic, stressed out, trying to live the western dream, all the while pissing away their heritage and their land, physically and financially.

My $.02
OD