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Some of what you say is true, however, you NEVER escape the need for some income no matter if you get it from a 9-5 job or by raising cattle or selling wood. You will always need to pay your taxes, and you will always need some parts or materials, and you will probably need medical care at some time.
I have nothing against simple living, or living using methods that have been around for thousands of years, but like the movie says, "Reality Bites".
I was raised in the manner you described, far back in the mountains, lots of hard work and not much else.
If the garden didn't do well, or if we had to sell all the calf and lamb crop to pay the property taxes instead of eating one, we had to either rely on hunting for our food, or BUYING it.
There was always the chance of broken bones while handling cattle or horses or dangerous equipment, or severe cuts and lacerations from saws and axes, you worked out in the cold and wet all the time so there were illnesses, no life is perfect.
I found the most efficent way for me to live was to combine the best of old and new. Yes, I work at a job with a computer, no I am not out feeding stock when it is -40, instead I am sipping coffee in a heated office building.
No I do not enjoy my work, but I do like the steady paycheck that allows me to keep our family land, to buy new stock animals, to pay for equipment, and provide security for my parents and set aside a retirement so I will have the funds to make sure my wife always has food and shelter.
I still work the land, still do lots of manual labor, I am very familier with the business end of axes and muck sticks, I still pitch hay and shovel manure, cut my own wood out of the forest for my heat, grow my gardens and dehydrate/can/preserve most of my own food, but now it is a choice and not a life or death survival situation.
We all make choices, we do what we have to do to survive.
If someone wants to live in a cave, using stone tools, wearing hides and bathing once a year whether they need it or not, fine with me, that is their choice. (I just hope they stay downwind of me )
As for me, I like the feeling of being able to write a check whenever my mother needs some medication, or my father has to have his knee replaced, or the wife needs a tank of gas. I like being able to provide for my family so they don't have to worry where their next meal is coming from, or that they will have to choose between heat and food or medicine this winter.
I have responsibilities that to me outweigh my "perfect" lifestyle, but you make it work and find your happiness in this life from what is important to you.
My family is my most important thing. I can hunt, fish, trap, cut wood, raise cattle, ride or drive horses, work the fields on my own time and enjoy it instead of worrying that if the crop doesn't come in, my family would starve.
Each to their own.
MTS: my point was not to make anyone feel guilty. Was just trying to say that life today is structured in such a way that it REQUIRES you to have a (boring) job to support your modern conveniences (like the coffee maker). A car makes a great transportation device until a) you realize it costs $20K-$unlimited and b) it costs to fix and c) burns gasoline that costs money etc. etc. Now that you have a car you can build cities to be more spread out, larger etc. This, in turn makes life impossible without the car. So, all of a sudden, owning a car is a requirement, without it you would starve.
Same with education, it is great that most jobs today require a college degree but if "life is better with technology" is going to be sold to me than technology, education etc. should all be free. That way it is really an improvement, not just a more intelligent and sophisticated way for someone to make money off me.
At least in the "other way" of life, nobody is selling me on anything and they don't need to convince me of anything, I rely on myself.
Finally, you would need money for a doctor, taxes etc., I guess.
Parts? What parts? If I don't drive a car, I don't need parts. If I use a plow with oxen or horses, what parts (I cannot make myself)? If I grow my own food etc. etc.
In my humble opinion, technology is a great way to cheat Mother Nature into supporting more people than could actually survive without it.
MTS: my point was not to make anyone feel guilty. Was just trying to say that life today is structured in such a way that it REQUIRES you to have a (boring) job to support your modern conveniences (like the coffee maker). A car makes a great transportation device until a) you realize it costs $20K-$unlimited and b) it costs to fix and c) burns gasoline that costs money etc. etc. Now that you have a car you can build cities to be more spread out, larger etc. This, in turn makes life impossible without the car. So, all of a sudden, owning a car is a requirement, without it you would starve.
Same with education, it is great that most jobs today require a college degree but if "life is better with technology" is going to be sold to me than technology, education etc. should all be free. That way it is really an improvement, not just a more intelligent and sophisticated way for someone to make money off me.
At least in the "other way" of life, nobody is selling me on anything and they don't need to convince me of anything, I rely on myself.
Finally, you would need money for a doctor, taxes etc., I guess.
Parts? What parts? If I don't drive a car, I don't need parts. If I use a plow with oxen or horses, what parts (I cannot make myself)? If I grow my own food etc. etc.
In my humble opinion, technology is a great way to cheat Mother Nature into supporting more people than could actually survive without it.
OD
Much of what you describe is a choice. In most large cities you don't want to have a car because the rent for a parking space is very prohibitive, and if mass transit is available, it is easier to use it than to try to pay for the license fees and taxes and parts and parking space for a car you can't usually drive anyway because of the traffic jams and lack of parking once you get there.
The choice is one of living stacked on top of each other cheek to jowl within easy walking distance of your job, or living within walking distance of the train depot or subway or bus stop, or living where you can have grass under your feet, a couple of feet of seperation from your neighbor, and yes, having to provide your own transportation using a car.
Choices.
I don't use smart phones, never learned to text, I don't worry if my coffee maker can make 75 kinds of espresso or not because I prefer drip regular coffee coffee.
I do have a degree in electronics, but my job has nothing to do with my degree, so I could consider it wasted money, but instead I look at it that I paid for my education because it was something I wanted to learn and use for myself.
My business has nothing to do with electronics, but my practical experience allows me to do something that few other people can do, design my own systems.
I don't want anything "free" from the government because I know that the only way the government would be able to give me "free" anything is by taking what I earn in taxes to "give" me back what they think I should have. I rely on myself and make my own decisions.
One final point, anything with any moving parts will sometime need a replacement piece, even if it is just a gasket for your hand water pump, or a bearing or bushing for your windmill pump, a bolt to put the door back on your stove that burned out over years of service, a replacement dishpan after the bottom has rusted out, or any of a thousand other things that are required for just basic living unless you only use a few hand tools that the only moving part is you, and you will still have to make your own shovel handles or ax handles, harness for your horses wears out over time, hames and singletrees/double trees break, plowshares wear out in rocky soil, there is no perfect life.
If you want to dump the corporate world and move to the backside of beyond and live hand to mouth betting that there won't be a drought or heavy snows that last too long, or no varmints eat your garden or kill your chickens or cattle, that Big Brother will write you off so you don't need to pay taxes for everybodys "free" stuff, go for it.
I sure won't stand in your way. Been there, done that. I like some security in my life and can still make my own decisions and live like I want to, not how some faceless bureaucrat says I should.
Different strokes man, you do your thing, I'll do mine.
One final point, anything with any moving parts will sometime need a replacement piece, even if it is just a gasket for your hand water pump, or a bearing or bushing for your windmill pump, a bolt to put the door back on your stove that burned out over years of service, a replacement dishpan after the bottom has rusted out, or any of a thousand other things that are required for just basic living unless you only use a few hand tools that the only moving part is you, and you will still have to make your own shovel handles or ax handles, harness for your horses wears out over time, hames and singletrees/double trees break, plowshares wear out in rocky soil, there is no perfect life.
Where is the line that delineates "simple" from "soulless rat race?"
You can have a grain mill driven by an electric or gas motor - you are grinding your own grain. If that's too newfangled and complex, what about a water wheel driven mill? But even that required engineering, design and tools much more complex than the simplest things required to survive. I guess that just leaves a mill stone and oxen.
It sounds to me like MTsilvertip has a good grasp and has chosen the right balance for him.
Although some folks lean toward traditional methods, I don't think there is anyone who is going to forgo all modern technology. I think it's more like a mix of both, and largely based on each person's biases, basic habits, preferences, and philosophies.
I talk here a lot about "old ways." But I'll gladly embrace a "new way" if I think it fits my personal goals or aspirations. For instance, I bought a solar oven last spring and I've been using it nearly daily (until our fall weather started switching to our cloudy cycle for the year) and LOVE it. My great grandfather didn't have one. BUT, it fits well with my goals and life philosophies. It costs me nothing (after the initial outlay, of course), and the food cooked within is far better and tastier than that cooked on a regular stove (although, I won't say it's better than food cooked in a hearth/dutch oven). So there is a technology that is truly useful for me. It doesn't cost me MORE than the old way of doing it (it actually saves me significant money), yet provides as good or better results. Doesn't require electricity. Can be used anywhere there is sunshine and a high enough sun angle. Very simple. That's what I call a useful new technology. So much so that I'm going to soon buy a parabolic solar cooker as well. Again, granny didn't have one of those. Does it take up more time than cooking in a microwave? I suppose, but it's a trade-off I'm happy with.
On the other hand, there are many technologies that certainly make things convenient, but end up costing me more of my time on this planet in order to fund. Those are the things I either avoid if possible or at least consider the alternatives. And I don't even mind spending extra time on actually doing those things the "harder way," rather than selling hours of my limited lifespan in some hellhole in order to fund the "convenience" of not having to do these tasks the "harder way." Really, is it more appealing working in a factory or cubicle for X number of hours to fund the monthly gas bill, or more appealing to go up in the woods for a far less amount of total time to cut the wood that could be used in place of the gas for heating? I guess it all depends on how you look at it. But, personally, I'd rather work for myself, even if it is harder work. So, I do so when possible/practical.
As for things such as chainsaw vs crosscut saw... well, see, that's where my personal bias comes into the equation as well. Yeah, if I had to chop an entire forest, I'd probably break down and use a chain saw. I've done it before (used a chain saw, not chopped an entire forest ). But for typical tasks... no way. I hate the noise, the smell, and the hassle. I'd rather work up the sweat and still hear the birds singing, even if I smell . I see people using chain saws for things they could have done faster with a pair of tiny little single-hand tree branch pruners! For instance, the county workers around here. I will always turn to a hand saw for typical tasks, such as building stick-built structures, timberframing, firewood, etc. If I'm going to become a logger, I'll use a chainsaw. I'll tell you though, a sharp lance-tooth crosscut saw can be as fast as a chainsaw for many tasks... as long as you have the oomph to power it. Which, if it's sharp, isn't all that much oomph.
Where is the line that delineates "simple" from "soulless rat race?"
You can have a grain mill driven by an electric or gas motor - you are grinding your own grain. If that's too newfangled and complex, what about a water wheel driven mill? But even that required engineering, design and tools much more complex than the simplest things required to survive. I guess that just leaves a mill stone and oxen.
It sounds to me like MTsilvertip has a good grasp and has chosen the right balance for him.
Personally, my biggest step toward simple living was to stop worrying about what other people thought about my lifestyle and stop justifying why I did/do things differently than they do (SS&P included!). I think popular opinions and social expectations clutter our lives way more than gadgets and tech ever did!
Although some folks lean toward traditional methods, I don't think there is anyone who is going to forgo all modern technology. I think it's more like a mix of both, and largely based on each person's biases, basic habits, preferences, and philosophies.
Here are some simple living forums you may find useful:
Personally, my biggest step toward simple living was to stop worrying about what other people thought about my lifestyle and stop justifying why I did/do things differently than they do (SS&P included!). I think popular opinions and social expectations clutter our lives way more than gadgets and tech ever did!
Me too. lol
This comes up frequently on the HomesteadingToday board; as mentioned I've been a member for as long as I have here.
It's common to see people asking, "Is this the homesteading way to do ____?" or, "I kind of cheated a bit and didn't do it the truly self-sufficient way..." and my point is always, I never care.
I just LIVE.
I don't live with a grey-water system and a composting toilet because it somehow makes us super-homesteaders. I live with this because the house we currently live in isn't where we want to build the septic system! lol
I'm not building a house almost entirely by myself with only occasional help from my husband and 12 year old to be SuperWoman. It's just that we can't afford to pay someone to do it for us.
We didn't live in a shop with a dirt floor for six months because it brought us back to basics...We just hadn't found better temporary housing yet.
I don't live without running water because it makes me more self-sufficient. I live without running water because we don't have a new well yet and will also plumb that to the new house, rather than this one, too.
None of this makes me a better person, more self-sufficient or stronger.
It just makes laundry a PIA.
Last edited by itsMeFred; 10-25-2012 at 08:47 AM..
This comes up frequently on the HomesteadingToday board; as mentioned I've been a member for as long as I have here.
It's common to see people asking, "Is this the homesteading way to do ____?" or, "I kind of cheated a bit and didn't do it the truly self-sufficient way..." and my point is always, I never care.
lol, they will soon dump that mindset won't they? Or run back to their former lifestyles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsMeFred
I just LIVE.
I don't live with a grey-water system and a composting toilet because it somehow makes us super-homesteaders. I live with this because the house we currently live in isn't where we want to build the septic system! lol
I'm not building a house almost entirely by myself with only occasional help from my husband and 12 year old to be SuperWoman. It's just that we can't afford to pay someone to do it for us.
We didn't live in a shop with a dirt floor for six months because it brought us back to basics...We just hadn't found better temporary housing yet.
I don't live without running water because it makes me more self-sufficient. I live without running water because we don't have a new well yet and will also plumb that to the new house, rather than this one, too.
None of this makes me a better person, more self-sufficient or stronger.
It just makes laundry a PIA.
You just went out and did it. That is what our great-grandparents would have done, no?
You can gather all the information in the world but none of it means much until you put it into practice to find out what works for you and your environment.
You bring up a good point too about determining the best spot on your land to build your house.
Is it really any different for anyone, though? Do people really do things a certain way because they think it makes them look "cool" to a certain group of people? I guess whatever floats their boat. Beyond that, I don't see anything wrong with discussing techniques. That's how we learn. But, given knowledge of both, choosing a stone wheel over a polymer composite wheel is a personal choice (assuming the availability of either). And it’s not always an economics-necessitated choice.
In my case, I live the way I live because that's the way I want to live. It's not because anyone is stopping me from doing "better for myself" (whatever that means) or that I want more, but for whatever reason can't attain more. It's simply a question of one’s personal definition of "better." We each have our own definition. Things are not always done out of necessity; they are, at times, chosen.
This is a discussion forum, and I don't really see why anyone would want to be here unless they were interested in discussing such topics. I don't visit the fashion forum because I have absolutely no interest in it. I don't go there and deride the participants because they are discussing their version of "fashion lifestyle." I don’t say that I only wear the type of 70’s leisure suit Person A wears because I can’t afford any better. (I don’t wear a leisure suit, BTW, it was only an example) I don’t assume that economics-necessitation is the only motivating factor.
This forum has a wide variety of topics. For instance, there are times when the first ten threads are talking about which AK-47 is the best or where to get MREs for cheap or what kind of mad-max type vehicle is best for the zombie crusades or what kind of solar power system is the best. Since I have little interest in those sorts of things, I don’t open those threads. Do people in those threads talk about their superior marksmanship or how they will shoot anything that so much as twitches in SHTF? Do they talk about how their 4WD DeathMobile is the bestest thing going and they are superior and will survive longer? Or their solar system will supply NYC if needs be? Yeah, that’s just the nature of the beast. Fish stories. Old ladies gossiping over the back fence. That’s how people are—not just here, but everywhere.
On the other hand, if I see a thread about how So-n-So is cooking in a hearth in his kitchen rather than an electric range or wood stove, I’m going to read it. I’m interested in that sort of thing. If So-n-So states that his cooking is better because of that technique, that’s fine, it’s So-n-So’s opinion. If he states that he’s doing it because he wants to do it that way rather than because he’s homeless and squatting in a 17th century cottage, it makes no difference to me—I’m interested in the doing part. I’m there to read of his experience, good or bad, and to see if I can learn anything from it that is useful for me. And, of course, I may well give the guy a pat on the back gesture as well. But if I didn’t want to discuss or read of any of these things, I wouldn’t even bother coming here. There will always be topics on a public forum that I’m not interested in or do not agree with. I can certainly argue my point on them, but I first have to accept the fact that those threads offending me will indeed be there and that my motivations on any given topic may not be the motivations of others in the thread.
Last edited by ChrisC; 10-25-2012 at 11:54 AM..
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I will always turn to a hand saw for typical tasks, such as building stick-built structures, timberframing, firewood, etc. If I'm going to become a logger, I'll use a chainsaw. I'll tell you though, a sharp lance-tooth crosscut saw can be as fast as a chainsaw for many tasks... as long as you have the oomph to power it. 
