Is FREE STATE PROJECT dead or alive?? (farmers, install, system)

[SCGranny]

Thanks for the link, Sweetbottoms, and the up-close-and-personal view.

The problem I've seen with the adherents of the FSP is pretty much the same. They have no idea how to fit in and effect change from within, nor do they want to. "We're right, we know it, you're wrong, you know it, and things have to be the way we say, because we're so much smarter than you!"

This doesn't work well in any society. John Brown's murderous and thieving ways, based on his belief that God told him to end slavery and cause a war, ended up being no more effective than Manson's attempt to cause a race war by murdering Sharon Tate. Their actions aren't about high-flung ideals for most of these types, they're about forcing the power over others that they can't find over themselves.

Ex. The FSP'er's I knew were all about taking power politically and getting people into office who could change the direction of the political mindset. They had webpages and blogs and rants (most of which had few viewers or readers - many removed the 'counters' from their pages when they found out how little they mattered; there was no 'silent majority' sneaking over to their pages to be educated in the wee hours). They would run for offices that they could not hope to attain, on shoestring budgets, merely to "prove a point". And the point that they inadvertently managed to prove is that they were unelectable, unresponsive to and uncaring of the electorate, and arrogant self-righteous losers who blamed the ignorant, stupid, and gullible constituents for their inability to comprehend their high and mighty salvation ideals - the very constituents that they claimed to want to represent and save from themselves.

I on the other hand had a weekly political column in a daily newspaper that had a readership of 60,000 - but they were dismissive because "you can't change anything in a group that small!" When I became an elected official, and could prove that I and my fellow patriots were making changes in our government toward more personal and fiscal responsibility (ex -instead of giving away taxpayer-funded utilities and amenities to developers, we forced them to pay for their own if they wanted to build) they insisted that we weren't doing it right or moving fast enough. No, the FSP's wanted everything their way, they wanted it NOW, and they didn't care who they ran over or insulted to get it. And that was why they had joined the FSP - because they figured that, in a larger group moving in to a smaller area, they could and would take control. From the ones I could see, it was all about forcing their anarchistic ideals on others. That isn't freedom.

I shook my head over that video and the illiterate, insulting, and verbally assaulting comments below it. Typical of the FSP' er's I've known, of course. The cyclist forced an altercation, purposefully leaving the police officer no other choice but to do what he did. We do not know what the story is behind it; if people called in to complain about the cyclist, if the officer caught him in a violation of a bike law (horrors! If you're against the law, by golly, you don't have to obey it!) - whatever. It wouldn't be a YouTube viral video, though, if the biker had pulled over and calmly and maturely said, "What's up, officer?" and found out why the officer was chasing him, and dealt with any complaints as an adult with legitimate rights - danged few cops do such things for pleasure. This sort of immaturity, not only on the webpage but in the actions Sweetbottoms describes, proves nothing good about the FSP'er's - high flung ideals aside.

FSP'er's wouldn't like rural Nebraska at all - here, everyone is too busy with their own lives to bother anyone else, ordinances are already at a minimum and rarely enforced, and there's no one listening if someone's standing on a street corner shrieking (the most you would do would be to attract the attention of a few bored cows). There's no one to give them the attention they demand and insist that they deserve - and if they tried to demand it, they'd be silently surrounded and escorted from the public area by people who open carry and know how to use them. Which is probably one of the reasons (aside from being land-locked) that Nebraska didn't 'make the cut' when the FSP'er's were deciding which state to move to.

'Scuse me, I have to go now - one of our neighbors passed recently, and some of us are going over to the house and ranch to sit, and keep it open and safe while the 5 -hour funeral (due to distances that have to be traveled) is in progress, so that the widow doesn't have to worry while she's gone.

[redwolf fan]

Originally Posted by Sweetbottoms

"We" don't do anything except move to NH and share a vague set of ideas about "promoting liberty".

Is that so? You might wanna check yourself and what exactly it is you guys do.

Your homebase would be Keene NH correct? Yes indeed how would I know? My husband is former Keene NH police officer. You guys did NOTHING but harass him and myself and the people of NH. Quite frankly I think they're all sick of it.. Lets talk about the vague ideas of promoting liberty shall we?

How about having your women stand topless mere hundreds of feet from an elementary school to protest?
Posting "cop watch" videos on youtube of you following police officers around town during any and all stops.
Even better harassing not only cops but their family members and children by posting police officers Names, Numbers and HOME ADDRESSES online for anyone to go to their house and protest them? In fact you encouraged people to go to their homes and do so.
Or posting video online on youtube of said cops of what their homes look like and YOU GUYS standing outside their homes screaming at them.
Smoking pot and doing drugs in Central Square weekly during your demonstrations and at any kind of festival and family fun activity as a point. You guys looked for any excuse for people to pull their children away from town run activites to shield them from your "sense of liberty".
Writing on the courthouse walls, sidewalks and anything else youc an get your hand on.
Essentially breaking any law you could to have the cops arrest you then cry foul.

One only needs to type Keene, NH into youtube to see how wonderful of a group you are. You are a bunch of children who were coddled and now are angry you can't get your way. You should all kindly shut up about your proposed sense of Liberty , its skewed and you are a bunch of harassing extremists who are looking for nothing less than Anarchy

I invite people to check out your CopBlock page and the harassing things you do to people (officers) and their families, you don't care about your fellow americans only your own selfish needs


The following is from their cop block page, I have bleeped out the phone number and address of Fintan as my husband and I personally know him but a quick visit to the free staters page and to the copblock tab will show you more of their extremist views.

The Keene police officer who brutally assaulted Derrick J. Freeman earlier this afternoon is named Fintan Moore. He lives at ----------- here in Keene, NH and his home number is (603) ***-****. If a woman answers, it may be Fintan’s wife Maureen. Be sure to tell her exactly what her husband did while at work today.
Fintan, a longtime New England resident, previously lived in Oxford, MA before moving to Keene in 1999. His brother Rory Moore and sister-in-law Lisa live in Sterling, his brother Kieran Moore and sister-in-law Marianne live in Marlborough as do his sister Maeve Allen and his brother-in-law Tom. His son, Fintan Moore III, is in the Navy Reserve and also lives in Keene.
If you know any of these people, please be sure to show them the video in the post below and ask them to talk to Fintan about his inappropriate and hurtful actions.
I forgive you, Fintan, and I am not angry at you. I only want you to think about your actions and I genuinely hope you stop hurting peaceful people. God bless.

And as Paul Harvey used to say------" and now you know the rest of the story "

Thank you for giving the other side .

[Mac_Muz]

Thanks Sweetbottoms... it has been a very long time since I heard anything about FS on the news, but the part I recall was some of them were trying ton get arrested. I forget the reasons why. I think trying to get pot legal was a part of the issue. Personally I think pot should be legal, and along with the 1,001 items that can be made, but I am not for any recreational uses.

When I first heard of them I wondered, and was curious, thinking maybe I might even join with them, since I am a gun owner for all my life. A few words back and forth on a web site ended any notion of that.

[ChrisC]

Originally Posted by Think4Yourself

Most people simply want government to do more things than just protect people from life threatening danger. That's just a fact and claiming their concerns and beliefs are some how not "liberty" is retarded. Sorry, but to once again answer the OP, no, it this nonsense has never had a chance in hell because even the founders gave the government more power than that.

All I can say is that if you believe collectivism (other than voluntary collectivism) is liberty, then there is nothing to discuss. Until we have the language/definition issues straight, we can't really speak the same language.

As for the founders giving the government more power than that, NO they didn't. And they nearly didn't give the federal government the little power it was granted at the time. What did give the federal government all the power it now has was/is a bunch of tyranny-loving, treasonous, traitorous, Ponzi-scheme-loving, power-mongering snakes who came into power over the years and either amended or misinterpreted the document, bamboozling a once free population into a form of quasi-slave dependants.

And, yes, this does have something to do with self-sufficiency. No one will ever be truly free and sufficient when we have half the decadent, over-consumptive, inept general populace standing around our homesteads with their open hands held out toward us, and the business end of a government M-16 to "motivate" our generosity. Indeed, that is diametrically opposed to the concept of self-sufficiency and liberty.

[Gungnir]

Ok I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but...

Originally Posted by Sweetbottoms

How about having your women stand topless mere hundreds of feet from an elementary school to protest?

As far as I can tell there is no law being broken, women are perfectly within their rights in NH to walk around topless. If you find this offensive, well go complain to the legislature. Kids know about boobs, often they were fed by them, and by the time most boys and some girls are 16 they can't wait to get their hands back onto someone elses. Now this may offend your sense of propriety, but it is not illegal.

Originally Posted by Sweetbottoms

Posting "cop watch" videos on youtube of you following police officers around town during any and all stops.
Even better harassing not only cops but their family members and children by posting police officers Names, Numbers and HOME ADDRESSES online for anyone to go to their house and protest them? In fact you encouraged people to go to their homes and do so.
Or posting video online on youtube of said cops of what their homes look like and YOU GUYS standing outside their homes screaming at them.

I'll get to this below the other discussion.

Originally Posted by Sweetbottoms

Smoking pot and doing drugs in Central Square weekly during your demonstrations and at any kind of festival and family fun activity as a point.

Pot is illegal in NH, it has some of the toughest laws in the US on it. So how many of these people using drugs have been arrested, how many have been charged and/or convicted? If it's still happening then have you performed your civic duty and informed the police? If there are one or two people who have been arrested, but the majority haven't then perhaps there's a little exaggeration going on.

Originally Posted by Sweetbottoms

You guys looked for any excuse for people to pull their children away from town run activites to shield them from your "sense of liberty".

Firstly this is entirely your opinion, and it's flawed even then, if no arrests resulted from what you consider the FSP's "sense of liberty" and activities associated, then obviously nothing illegal was occurring. The claim they're looking for any excuse is conjecture, unless you can provide your credentials as a mole within the FSP, or are prepared to present scientific documentation of your confirmed telepathy.

Originally Posted by Sweetbottoms

Writing on the courthouse walls, sidewalks and anything else youc an get your hand on.
Essentially breaking any law you could to have the cops arrest you then cry foul.

It's perfectly legal to write anything you like anywhere, just not thereby cause property damage. So you can't use spray paint or anything permanent, non-permanent scribbles are legal however. If they have broken any law they could could you provide statistics on number of arrests, number of charges levelled, and number of convictions. If these stats show, and I suspect they do, that there will be 10 arrests for every charge, and 10 charges for every conviction, it is strongly indicative of police harassment (that's a 100:1 arrest to conviction ratio, most PD's would be embarrassed by those figures). If the police are indeed harassing the FSP, then you are blaming the victims, and obviously the victims will try to rebel against that harassment at every opportunity within the letter of the law.

Originally Posted by Sweetbottoms

One only needs to type Keene, NH into youtube to see how wonderful of a group you are. You are a bunch of children who were coddled and now are angry you can't get your way. You should all kindly shut up about your proposed sense of Liberty , its skewed and you are a bunch of harassing extremists who are looking for nothing less than Anarchy

In your opinion, however which is preferable, absolute liberty, or absolute authoritarianism? Absolute liberty is often synonymous with True Anarchy.

Originally Posted by Sweetbottoms

I invite people to check out your CopBlock page and the harassing things you do to people (officers) and their families, you don't care about your fellow americans only your own selfish needs

The following is from their cop block page, I have bleeped out the phone number and address of Fintan as my husband and I personally know him but a quick visit to the free staters page and to the copblock tab will show you more of their extremist views.

The Keene police officer who brutally assaulted Derrick J. Freeman earlier this afternoon is named Fintan Moore. He lives at ----------- here in Keene, NH and his home number is (603) ***-****. If a woman answers, it may be Fintan’s wife Maureen. Be sure to tell her exactly what her husband did while at work today.
Fintan, a longtime New England resident, previously lived in Oxford, MA before moving to Keene in 1999. His brother Rory Moore and sister-in-law Lisa live in Sterling, his brother Kieran Moore and sister-in-law Marianne live in Marlborough as do his sister Maeve Allen and his brother-in-law Tom. His son, Fintan Moore III, is in the Navy Reserve and also lives in Keene.
If you know any of these people, please be sure to show them the video in the post below and ask them to talk to Fintan about his inappropriate and hurtful actions.
I forgive you, Fintan, and I am not angry at you. I only want you to think about your actions and I genuinely hope you stop hurting peaceful people. God bless.

Ok on this, and the other comment made above, here's my opinion. If the police are acting within the law (and they are not miniature Judge Dredd's, they follow the law, they are not "the law"), then they should not have any problem being followed and taped. Isn't that what the police state about many things, if you've nothing to hide, then why should they need a warrant? By the same measure if the police are acting legally and in the best interests of discharging their duties, then there should be no problem with them being videotaped in the pursuit of those duties.

James Madison said
"Despotism can only exist in darkness, and there are too many lights now in the political firmament to permit it to remain anywhere, as it has heretofore done, almost everywhere."
We as a society have chosen to draw a curtain over certain aspects of the "political firmament", however despotism isn't limited to government, it applies to anyone in a position of authority including the police.

Now on to the tape, if the tape was of a civilian acting in the same manner as the cop, would you agree with the method used to 'name and shame' the offender? If so, then thank you for agreeing with me, the police are civilians and have more laws in effect on them than the average citizen.

On the tape, all I saw was a low speed pursuit of a cyclist for reasons unknown, it may have been perfectly justified, however there are two concerns I have, there was no reason communicated for the stop, there was ample opportunity for the officer to communicate that verbally, he chose not to do so. This introduces elements of doubt, since unless the officer in the recording was the most unobservant officer on the face of the planet (which would call in to doubt his performance in a role that requires careful observation) then he must have been aware of the camera, thus one of two conclusions can be drawn, he did not want the alleged offense recorded and that leads to a whole can of worms none of which are good for the cop, or he is indeed the most unobservant officer on the planet and may not be suited to that type of employment. While the cyclist did break Wheatons Law (don't be a d*ck) so did the cop, and Wheatons Law is not recognized as part of US, or NH law.

Regardless, the cyclist was indeed assaulted, and there was little need for it. He was no apparent threat, and it is NOT the police officers duty to punish, punishment in the US should be a matter for the courts, and indeed it IS legally (although we all know that often people do suffer unjustified assaults at the hands of the police, often because there was no obvious respect for their authority).

I'm not affiliated in any way with FSP, however, I am a strong believer in freedom, and freedom often means that certain activities occur that I may find objectionable, however that's fine, because I have the freedom to not to partake in those activities, and I do not believe that because I find them objectionable that others should be denied those freedoms.

[claudhopper]

Originally Posted by Gungnir

Ok I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but...



As far as I can tell there is no law being broken, women are perfectly within their rights in NH to walk around topless. If you find this offensive, well go complain to the legislature. Kids know about boobs, often they were fed by them, and by the time most boys and some girls are 16 they can't wait to get their hands back onto someone elses. Now this may offend your sense of propriety, but it is not illegal.



I'll get to this below the other discussion.



Pot is illegal in NH, it has some of the toughest laws in the US on it. So how many of these people using drugs have been arrested, how many have been charged and/or convicted? If it's still happening then have you performed your civic duty and informed the police? If there are one or two people who have been arrested, but the majority haven't then perhaps there's a little exaggeration going on.



Firstly this is entirely your opinion, and it's flawed even then, if no arrests resulted from what you consider the FSP's "sense of liberty" and activities associated, then obviously nothing illegal was occurring. The claim they're looking for any excuse is conjecture, unless you can provide your credentials as a mole within the FSP, or are prepared to present scientific documentation of your confirmed telepathy.



It's perfectly legal to write anything you like anywhere, just not thereby cause property damage. So you can't use spray paint or anything permanent, non-permanent scribbles are legal however. If they have broken any law they could could you provide statistics on number of arrests, number of charges levelled, and number of convictions. If these stats show, and I suspect they do, that there will be 10 arrests for every charge, and 10 charges for every conviction, it is strongly indicative of police harassment (that's a 100:1 arrest to conviction ratio, most PD's would be embarrassed by those figures). If the police are indeed harassing the FSP, then you are blaming the victims, and obviously the victims will try to rebel against that harassment at every opportunity within the letter of the law.



In your opinion, however which is preferable, absolute liberty, or absolute authoritarianism? Absolute liberty is often synonymous with True Anarchy.



Ok on this, and the other comment made above, here's my opinion. If the police are acting within the law (and they are not miniature Judge Dredd's, they follow the law, they are not "the law"), then they should not have any problem being followed and taped. Isn't that what the police state about many things, if you've nothing to hide, then why should they need a warrant? By the same measure if the police are acting legally and in the best interests of discharging their duties, then there should be no problem with them being videotaped in the pursuit of those duties.

James Madison said
"Despotism can only exist in darkness, and there are too many lights now in the political firmament to permit it to remain anywhere, as it has heretofore done, almost everywhere."
We as a society have chosen to draw a curtain over certain aspects of the "political firmament", however despotism isn't limited to government, it applies to anyone in a position of authority including the police.

Now on to the tape, if the tape was of a civilian acting in the same manner as the cop, would you agree with the method used to 'name and shame' the offender? If so, then thank you for agreeing with me, the police are civilians and have more laws in effect on them than the average citizen.

On the tape, all I saw was a low speed pursuit of a cyclist for reasons unknown, it may have been perfectly justified, however there are two concerns I have, there was no reason communicated for the stop, there was ample opportunity for the officer to communicate that verbally, he chose not to do so. This introduces elements of doubt, since unless the officer in the recording was the most unobservant officer on the face of the planet (which would call in to doubt his performance in a role that requires careful observation) then he must have been aware of the camera, thus one of two conclusions can be drawn, he did not want the alleged offense recorded and that leads to a whole can of worms none of which are good for the cop, or he is indeed the most unobservant officer on the planet and may not be suited to that type of employment. While the cyclist did break Wheatons Law (don't be a d*ck) so did the cop, and Wheatons Law is not recognized as part of US, or NH law.

Regardless, the cyclist was indeed assaulted, and there was little need for it. He was no apparent threat, and it is NOT the police officers duty to punish, punishment in the US should be a matter for the courts, and indeed it IS legally (although we all know that often people do suffer unjustified assaults at the hands of the police, often because there was no obvious respect for their authority).

I'm not affiliated in any way with FSP, however, I am a strong believer in freedom, and freedom often means that certain activities occur that I may find objectionable, however that's fine, because I have the freedom to not to partake in those activities, and I do not believe that because I find them objectionable that others should be denied those freedoms.

Please state your real name, address and phone number, so you can take responsibility for this post. You haven't done anything illegal, so it shouldn't be a problem, right?

[Sweetbottoms]

Even if it is legal for women to be topless it doesn't make it right. I mean it's legal to wear a swastika on your shirt but common sense tells one not to do it. ESP with school aged children right there. Kids also know about a penis but that doesn't mean I want my daughter to see you parading yours around during recess.

In response to the officers should have no prob being followed and taped comment look at it from my point of view as a police officers wife. My husband pulls over a car reported stolen, the man is a felon known to have a history of assaulting officers / carring weapons etc. Here come you freestaters with cameras in his face yelling at him, harassing him and so On. He's now divided on attention between you guys and his saftety againstsuspect. God forbid the man had a gun, as my husband turns his attention to you to get you out of his face the man draws and fires noticing he's not fully focused on him. I get the call and have to explain to my daughter why daddy isn't coming home... You guys gonna pay the funeral expenses, counseling for my daughter, my bills and fix my heartache .. All because you needed to do in the govt ? Or is he just another dead cop and one less injustice againt you wanting to smoke pot and walk topless?

[Gungnir]

Originally Posted by claudhopper

Please state your real name, address and phone number, so you can take responsibility for this post. You haven't done anything illegal, so it shouldn't be a problem, right?

Fallacious argument...

If a civilian had acted in the way that the cop did in the video, and only based on video evidence, then they would be guilty of several crimes (potentially including attempted vehicular manslaughter). In such an instance there are many examples of people posting those types of offenses on YouTube and publicizing the actions of the perpetrators with names, addresses, telephone numbers and family members. For example I'm sure you're fine with having registries for pedophiles, or local media publicizing the presence of known serious criminals living in a location.

Since there is no evidence that the cop in the video was acting lawfully in the pursuit of his duties; something that could easily have been achieved by shutting off his siren and yelling why he wanted to pull over the cyclist, then there is only one conclusion to draw. As I said the police are not "the law" they enforce it, and must follow it, unless a cop can articulate probable cause they have no right to stop you. If we assume that they are "the law" and have no other responsibilities to bear, then we're more than half way down the road to a police state. If we allow them to act like they are the law, then we already live in a police state (or soon will).

As I mentioned observation of suspects is an important skill for the police, one would justifiably assume that the cop in that video would observe the video camera, and change his behavior accordingly so that his story of the events was captured. Since he did not then it raises questions about the justification of the stop (i.e. he suspected he could not justify the stop and did not want that information recorded), or the ability of the cop to discharge his overall duties based on his inability to see that at short distance the person he was trying to stop was using a video camera. Would you want a cop who cannot see someone using a video camera while cycling trying to find an armed gunman on the street?

[SCGranny]

Gungnir - Was the vid paused and restarted several times, cutting out the parts where the officer DID try to tell the person? Do you know? Because I don't - although there was at least one point in the vid where it looked like the officer WAS trying to communicate, and that part was 'conveniently' edited.

I don't have a problem with people taping police activities at all. It was for that reason we paid to have cameras installed in every police, deputy's, and trooper's vehicle - because in almost every instance, the unedited and bald truth videos proved that the officers were acting according to the laws, and that the claims of the suspect/perpetrator/'victim' were specious if not downright incendiary lies. In those few where the tape proved their malfeasance, they were relieved from duty, and an investigation initiated to have them fired - and, if the offense was an actual crime, prosecuted.

I DO definitely have a problem with citizens who are giving out police officers' addresses and home phone numbers and encouraging individuals to call their family members and harass them. We had an idiot sheriff where I used to live who thought that putting the police officers' names and phone numbers on their cars was a great idea - which led to not only vandalism and harassment, but at one point an actual threat on the life of an officer's children by a repeat criminal. Within the year the practice had stopped but the damage was done... I knew most of the police officers - and firefighters, and EMTs and Paramedics - where I lived, because they were almost all my friends, as did many of the locals. Still, the broadcasting of this info and encouragement to harass officers and their families - as Sweetbottoms mentioned - is, simply, wrong.

"Bad" police officers should be brought to justice as swiftly and surely as criminals, because they abuse the public trust. But purposely targeting police officers for enforcing the laws that they were hired to enforce is not only causing a disruption in police protection, but betrays the public's trust that they will get the protection and law enforcement that they pay for, and encourages a descent into anarchy. The problem is that these people who do this know exactly what they are doing, and what the outcome will be - and they glory in it, at the expense of not only the officers but the public expectation of justice served.

[redwolf fan]

Originally Posted by claudhopper

please state your real name, address and phone number, so you can take responsibility for this post. You haven't done anything illegal, so it shouldn't be a problem, right?

yup !