How will the election outcome affect your preparation? (oil, gun, prices)

[itsMeFred]

You're right. But Republicans threw a hissy-fit over the public option, so all that's left is private...

I am not convinced being gay isn't a taught thing...

You would be if you worked with adolescent youth in conservative, rural areas for a decade or two. It's not taught.
But I agree with Chris anyway. The government shouldn't really have anything to do with marriages, beyond being a potential third party that can oversee a legally binding contract.

[RomaniGypsy]

Originally Posted by scarlet_ohara

Voluntary poverty plus obamacare, food stamps, etc., does not make one self-sufficient, it makes one part of the problem. It makes one equivalent to what is commonly referred to as a welfare queen.

Funny how some folks rationalize taking advantage of these kinds of programs for themselves yet vilify those that have been taking advantage of them, which is part of what got us into this mess in the first place, at least as far as creating that dependent mindset.

Understand that my idea of voluntary poverty is to be able to grow my own food so that I don't have to be on food stamps. I didn't say "voluntary government dependence".

And if I do take advantage of the system, I can show you my Social Security statement, which lists all of the income upon which I have paid taxes over the last 15 years. That tax money has disappeared from me and I have gotten NOTHING in return. Come on. We all get mad when the soda machine eats our quarter. The government has eaten, by my estimation, well in excess of $100,000 from me during the course of my working life through income taxes, Social Security taxes, Medicare taxes, sales taxes, and all manner of other general excise taxes such as fuel taxes, tire taxes, etc. For that $100,000+, I have gotten NOTHING. The ONLY taxes that have ever funded anything that was of any benefit to me whatsoever were the property taxes I have paid, which ostensibly go toward supporting police, municipal road crews, etc. Perhaps some of those road crews were paid for by state taxes... who knows... but even if we give 'em that one as well, plowed roads ain't much to get for having paid over $100,000 in taxes.

Sure, we have a national military. But I live in one of the most heavily military towns in the USA and I hear the story from the soldiers' side. Ain't too many of them who believe we're doing the right thing by fighting this war in the Middle East. I would pay for NATIONAL DEFENSE but when I say that, I'm talking about: profile people so that we don't get anyone even remotely likely to be a terrorist coming into our country, erect a border fence so that illegals can't get into America and drain our taxpayer-funded social welfare programs, and set up as many defense systems as necessary such that everyone leaves America alone due to their absolutely certain destruction should they mess with us. It's like... we ought to go to the proverbial gym, build up huge muscles, and go around wearing a proverbial tank top and workout shorts all the time (and a jock strap, naturally). Nobody messes with a dude who is known to have gigantic muscles, because it's for certain that they're going to be beaten up... hence, the dude with big muscles never has to get into any fights. I'd pay for THAT. But I don't support what's going on right now because I don't see the benefit of it. If the people fighting the war don't see any benefit from it, how can I?

So, like I said, should the time ever come that I need to take advantage of the system, I have more than earned the right to do so over the last 15 years. There are lots of people out there who have never paid much in taxes, but yet receive all kinds of money from the government. What's the incentive to be one of the givers? Maybe it's time for me to be a receiver. I don't like working hard for money, only for a significant chunk of it to be robbed from me to be put into the hands of undeserving lazy welfare bums who smoke and drink every day instead of doing whatever they can to get a job. If I stop working for that type of money, at least it can no longer be said that I am materially supporting a system with which I do not agree.

Besides, who really needs money? All that money is, is a means to facilitate trade. Get a situation where trade can happen without money, and you can live a good life without money. They can't tax trade... when you have no money to pay, there's no money they can take... and besides, trade leaves no detectable trail.

Originally Posted by MTSilvertip

OPSEC = Operational Security, or in plain English, don't let anybody else know what you have.
BAU = Business as Usual, or some call it SSDD, Same S...tuff, Different Day.

The problem with locating to an area that has perfect climate is, Perfect climate. That is where everybody wants to be.

I live in Montana. We have plenty of trees, pretty good water, it can get hot during the summer and cold during the winter, we are isolated, but those are in our favor as it keeps a lot of folks out of here.

I find that a positive thing

I would agree with you. But I thought that most areas of Montana are considered "arid"...?

I'd sooner live in a really cold climate that rarely got hot. That keeps plenty of riffraff away because, in my observation at least, riffraff tends to congregate in milder, warmer climates.

Originally Posted by MTSilvertip

All I was saying was don't limit yourself, look at all possibilities. If there was a perfect place with perfect climate and perfect weather and perfect politics, it would already be overcrowded.

Part of living in a self sufficent manner is the ability to take what you have and make it work.

Adapt and overcome. If you want to change things you have to become involved.
Complaining on a computer board does nothing to solve a problem.

There are differing degrees of that, though. It's awfully hard to live self-sufficiently (meaning no electrical grid dependence or municipal water dependence) if you are in a hot, arid region. It's easy to generate heat using fire... not so easy to chill out on a cold day without air conditioning. Without much rain, you're wholly dependent upon ground water for all of your watering needs, which could be bad if the local water authority decides to enact limits on how much water you can draw from your well... or, even worse, if the wells dry up. There are plenty of farmers here in Texas who've seen their crops devastated over the past couple of summers because it got brutally hot, there was no rain, and they weren't able to irrigate as much as was necessary.

Originally Posted by MTSilvertip

I find the election results reprehensible, but I also understand there are a lot of people who are so dependent on what the government gives them instead of what they can do for themselves, they can't imagine working for what they want or need, so it isn't surprising they would vote for the guy that promises to give them the most stuff.
I prefer to do for myself and have the freedom to continue doing that, but apparently I am in the minority.

This means as far as what I do on a day to day basis, I have to keep more of my activities under the radar, for instance, more bartering instead of writing a check. More cash transactions instead of using the debit card.
If your transactions are harder to track, fewer people know exactly what you have.

In other words, OPSEC.

Just my 2 cents

Sounds like a good idea to me. I already do that to a small extent at least, using legal means to avoid having to pay taxes on certain earnings... for example, I tell certain students' families not to pay me at all, and instead, give the money they'd have otherwise paid me for lessons, to their church. That way, I have done my Christian duty by tithing to the church from the fruits of my labor, THEY get the tax deduction for the donation if they itemize, and I don't have to pay tax on the money because I never received it. On paper, I'm giving them free or reduced-price music lessons, and they're making a donation to their church. Oh sure, I could deduct the donation myself if I made it... but I never itemize because it doesn't make sense. I take the standard deduction, which means it ain't changing regardless of what I donate. Therefore, I'd be taxed on the extra money because I would take the standard deduction anyway if I didn't receive that money.

I think there's a lot to be said for setting up bartering collectives in this country... of course, they'd have to be hush-hush lest the IRS try to use some esoteric provision in its 78,000-page tax code to try to get you to pay tax on barter transactions (I'd love to see them enforce THAT when the involved people don't have any money).

[scarlet_ohara]

Originally Posted by Happy in Wyoming

He said they all talked about getting a few acres, raising veggies and goats, and living the wholesome life. But the first stop was the food stamp office.

Yes, that's what I'm talking about...I've seen it too.

Originally Posted by ChrisC

Don't just assume that a low income earner automatically is running to the government.

No, you misunderstood. You assumed I was assuming that. I wasn't and I don't. I was referring to people that might be getting the idea they should choose poverty with the benefits that they are sick of giving to others. What would make them different than those people?

Originally Posted by ChrisC

Only if one is getting some sort of assistance (food stamps, etc...) from the government. I never have in my lifetime. I can easily live on $18,000 per year or less. I did it for over 5 years (by choice). Some people simply don’t need the things that cost the most in life; they design their lives that way. I don't spout all this frugality stuff from wishful thinking. I have a track record doing it.

18k for one person?! LOL! DH and I can do about half that for the 2 of us and in no way look like paupers by any stretch of the word.

Originally Posted by ChrisC

I haven’t really done it that way the past few years, but it looks like it’s time to return to that lifestyle. Either that or become so independently wealthy that none of this punitive crap from the government means anything—it’s a drop in the bucket. Hey, I KNOW! I could invent an anti-obamacare topical cream--citrus scented!

No you have it wrong. You should be targeting the pro-obama groups as they are the gullible ones willing to sell their souls for Christmas turkeys. You could make tons of cash. It sure is tempting but it's just not in me to do that, at least not yet. That might depend on how far they keep pushing their will on me. I think I heard Obama say something about revenge being a good thing.

[scarlet_ohara]

Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy

Understand that my idea of voluntary poverty is to be able to grow my own food so that I don't have to be on food stamps. I didn't say "voluntary government dependence".

That post was a standalone, not addressed to, or in response to you or anyone specifically.

[Happy in Wyoming]

Originally Posted by ChrisC

Basically what you're saying is that you would be a Tory (Loyalist) in 1776.

It's a matter of principle. Health insurance is something most people desire to have in their lives anyway, just like a car, house, etc. However, the government has NO business telling anyone that they must purchase health insurance from a private company. They have no more right doing that than they would mandating that everyone have a car or house (Obama himself stated this at one time, before doing an about-face).

And just as if the government told me I had to buy a car, I'm not going to do it, even if I normally would. I'd walk. I'd find another way. I'd find a way around TYRANNY. Government is not going to tell me I HAVE to do anything, even if I should (at least any more than they already do--enough is enough). As all those oh-so-concerned women back in the 70's and 80's used to say, Keep Your Hands Off My Body. And where are those women now??? Straaaaaangely silent. Even in the face of a more severe compromise of their bodies.

Is my stance “bull-headed” on this matter? You bet it is. But if someone wouldn’t have been bull-headed on such matters, we wouldn’t even have the United States of America in the first place. But, maybe we don’t anyway. Maybe we’ve lost it… all because of people who are willing to bend over and go along with flow of tyranny…

No, I would not have been a Tory. I would have joined a realistic cause of freedom.

But that's not the case with Obamacare. There'll be a few who will refuse to pay. The government can easily imprison them as examples just as they imprison tax protestors as examples. I can fight looters or rioters; I can't fight the federal government. Neither can you.

You know as well as I do that you're not going to trade the job of math professor for that of convenience store clerk or similar. Gripe about it as much as you want. I certainly do. But what purpose would depriving yourself of income serve?

And yes, we have lost the country.

[MTSilvertip]

Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy

I would agree with you. But I thought that most areas of Montana are considered "arid"...?

If by arid you mean that the primary moisture comes from snowfall, then yes you could consider parts of Montana "Arid".

However, while the eastern 2/3rds of the state are high plains and do not recieve a lot of rain, the mountains in the west do receive a lot of snow which goes down the rivers to the east where the land is irrigated.
The eastern part of the state does receive rain during the summer, and dryland wheat is one of the primary crops as is dryland hay.

We don't get huge amounts of moisture in the form of rain, but the snowpack which can also be measured in feet all across the state, recharges the aquifers so most people live on well water instead of surface water.

Spreader dams and runoff dams are used to catch the melting snow to provide ponds for watering livestock and irrigation.
Cisterns are used in some areas because of layers of subsurface rock make drilling a well too expensive, but a good catchment system will handle just about all your needs.

It is a different way of living, but far from Death Valley which I consider "arid".

It is snowing as I am typing this post, and the projections are for anywhere from 1 foot to 2 feet of snowfall today and tonight.

Lots of moisture in that stuff.

Again, Research will answer a lot of questions you may have and also perhaps give you real information instead of misconseptions.
Average Yearly Precipitation for Montana - Current Results

We may not be as wet as a lot of places, but we are far from desert.

[ChrisC]

Originally Posted by scarlet_ohara

No, you misunderstood. You assumed I was assuming that. I wasn't and I don't. I was referring to people that might be getting the idea they should choose poverty with the benefits that they are sick of giving to others. What would make them different than those people?

We are certainly on the same page with that. There would be no difference at all--the pot calling the kettle thing.

Originally Posted by scarlet_ohara

18k for one person?! LOL! DH and I can do about half that for the 2 of us and in no way look like paupers by any stretch of the word.

Sounds like I'm going to have to cut some waste next time around. It's like Marathon Runner A bragging about a time of 3:40 to Marathon Runner B who a posted 3:10. Marathon Runner A learns that he got his doors blown off... he then simply clears his throat submissively and fidgets.

Originally Posted by scarlet_ohara

No you have it wrong. You should be targeting the pro-obama groups as they are the gullible ones willing to sell their souls for Christmas turkeys. You could make tons of cash. It sure is tempting but it's just not in me to do that, at least not yet. That might depend on how far they keep pushing their will on me. I think I heard Obama say something about revenge being a good thing.

Actually, you're right. How about an Anti-Brain-Washing Topical Creme for the Obamatons? We'll call it Obam-away (TM)

Originally Posted by Happy in Wyoming

And yes, we have lost the country.

Well, I think we can all agree on this one. This last election proved that more people are in the wagon than are pulling the wagon. A non-sustainable situation. It's only a matter of time until the wagon comes to a halt.

[monkeywrenching]

I just ordered 1.5 pallets of ammo today. I would rather have too much than too little or none at all.

[Mac_Muz]

Originally Posted by ChrisC

I'm beginning to think that what you did in the place you did it is really the only option for liberty seekers left within the US borders. You're a wise woman to have seen it coming a long time ago (to the extent it will now, undoubtedly mushroom). Complete seclusion (from the government "machine" and the people who support and/or depend upon it) and wages not worth bothering to tax or to find you to tax, I believe, is the way to go. It's the same idea as having nothing to steal will keep the thieves from bothering with you. I've assumed that there are other areas within the US to shed of the shackles, but for those with a certain set of priorities and requirements, there are not. The only real choices at this point are to sink with the Titanic (and it will sink for one reason or another--it has a lot of leaks right now) by picking pretty much any place in the lower 48, or jump ship--and like I said, there's really only one place to jump ship at this point within the US. And you are there.

I've been a fool all of my life. I have been a slave all of my life. I had been willing to comply because "that's the way it has been since I can remember." Now that new shackles are being forged and attached (while they are still painfully hot), I noticed it. I woke my ass up. And when I took a look at where a good chunk of MY LABOR was already going, I realized I'd been duped my whole life. Unfortunately, the new generation who will have had such laws as obamacare "always there since they could remember" will take it up the backside just as I've been doing all of my life. It's no longer a case of what the country can do for you or what you can do for the country... it's what the government can, and will, do to YOU.

And PLEASE, nobody give me any grief about this last paragraph. I'm venting. OK??? Just let me get it out of my system... before I move to f'n Antarctica.




Ohhhhhh, lookie mama... look at the man over there... he's melting down.

Good post Chris..... tried to rep you, I feel the same way...


Once I was removed by society but returned. I know, or i thought I did that I could leave, and i could but more recently trying to survive i suffered another injury to my weak back...
of course this is directly due to trying to work with in a society that that cast me out for a bad back. Denying surgery for a workers comp injury.

Oh Boy can I sell my loyalty and labor to cheap!

The other truth is my new bride, new as in not x wife. She was never very happy tee pee living but she did it because i would not take the govt dole....

With the results of the NH election and that of the country I am at another make it or break it point, and now I want my back fixed.

If there is going to be wild spending in NH than I WANT my part of it in surgery. i don't think the democrats will really give it to me, but it will be a good tool to call their bluff.

If i do get it, I doubt i will suffer any guilt. Working under the slave form 1099 isn't always so easy. It is more like slitting ones own throat but not quite bleeding to death.

[Mac_Muz]

Originally Posted by monkeywrenching

I just ordered 1.5 pallets of ammo today. I would rather have too much than too little or none at all.

Spend it while it is still going to buy anything.... If it is common fodder you might use that as a cash if you ever should have too.

It's really bugging me that the dollar has no value passing what the govt says..... With out the govt that paper is worthless, and if the govt says it is, IT IS.

Good time for metals huh?