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Really he said that, it was BJJ or more accurately some offshoot of Gracie Jiu-Jutsu? You understand just how ironic that is? For those who don't I'll explain, Gracie Jiu-Jutsu was developed from Kosen Judo by the Gracie Family, because they felt that a smaller weaker opponent should be able to more successfully defend themselves against a larger stronger opponent. Its primary focus is ground fighting which negates the advantage of taller opponent with longer reach and height. So in effect what your instructor said to you was "Thanks for the money, but you just wasted it.", which makes me think you missed the point, or your instructor is an idiot.
Meanwhile back to the situation, you lost before you started from that description,
you were intimidated: Your instructor pointed out the height/weight differential, leaned over, and he was your instructor thus more skilled and experienced.
You were asked to perform an attack: Tackle him (what did that mean anyway, was it supposed to mean pull guard?, or just generally attack?)
You unsuccessfully performed your attack: Not surprising given he was expecting it, why jump on his back, why not sweep him, or throw him.
You failed to see your advantage: When he fell backwards, on you, you're in a back mount, with him on top, once you have your legs locked on it's one of the dominant positions. What could he do? Roll? Yup onto his face with you on top, that is the MOST dominant position. You can do what you want and he can't really do very much other than roll or throw weak elbows, he can't see very well, and he's open for a choke, locks, you can punch him in the head, neck and back.
Would you like me to go on...?
Your "Rule of the Wild" because of that event actually proves the reverse if you don't eliminate you being psyched out. You didn't believe you could win, there was nothing you've said in there that makes me think you were in anything but an equal to dominant position throughout, but you clearly didn't see that at the time. It actually makes me question how experienced you were before this event occurred, which goes back to my first statement about your instructor being an idiot.
Look at the real "Wild", Moose 1500lbs of meat are killed by these two lone predators bears 6' long weighing 700-800lbs, Wolverine 3' long weighing 20-55lbs. If your rule of the wild were accurate, then neither bears, nor wolverines would kill and eat Moose, as the Moose is bigger, stronger and heavier.
Nope the "Rule of the Wild" that I've seen in the actual wild is the nastiest, orneriest, and stubbornest is the one that carries the day, its not the prettiest victory, but it's a victory.
As someone that has some training in MA's and knows quite a few that have more than I, you realize that BJJ is quite good against 1-1 as in the UFC cage, but doesn't hold up often in street fight or SD application. Try a take down on concrete like my co-worker's friend whom is a Gracie blue belt and he is still in therapy from the damage he did to himself pulling that move on concrete.
You made my point already with analogy of 3 wild animals attacking a larger one. That "moose" could be a black belt in Gracie BJJ and the pack of wolverines with no training are still going to take it in an attack. If it were me I would learn that nastiest form of fighting/SD and if attacked hit and run not stick around to prove the great fighter as you never know if one of those people approaching the altercation is a friend of the attacker which you are beating 1-1 with BJJ.
If the OP doesn't want to carry a gun, fine some nasty SD skills and a knife will better equalize those odds against multiple attackers.
If you look objectively what works if you cut off someone airway they are done, whether by choke, knife hand chop, stabbing. If someone can't see their chances of an effective attack against you are much diminished. Kick them in the balls that works against some, but against someone hopped up on drugs not so well in some cases.
If you look at interviews and confessions of hardened killers and rapists in prison the majority of them had no formal self defense training at all, they are all willing to attack without surprise and have the mental make up to do so. They will do whatever it takes to win, pick up a rock or board, kick a downed opponent in the head. When I have taken MA's esp with women, no offense, when a necessary pre-emptive attack is warranted they will say that's not right that's not fair. Well the real world is far from fair and if you don't have the ability to strike first when you know in your gut you are going to be attacked it doesn't matter what you study you don't have the mental ability to attack and you best run because your half hearted attempt at SD will get you seriously hurt.
Really he said that, it was BJJ or more accurately some offshoot of Gracie Jiu-Jutsu? You understand just how ironic that is? For those who don't I'll explain, Gracie Jiu-Jutsu was developed from Kosen Judo by the Gracie Family, because they felt that a smaller weaker opponent should be able to more successfully defend themselves against a larger stronger opponent. Its primary focus is ground fighting which negates the advantage of taller opponent with longer reach and height. So in effect what your instructor said to you was "Thanks for the money, but you just wasted it.", which makes me think you missed the point, or your instructor is an idiot.
Meanwhile back to the situation, you lost before you started from that description,
you were intimidated: Your instructor pointed out the height/weight differential, leaned over, and he was your instructor thus more skilled and experienced.
You were asked to perform an attack: Tackle him (what did that mean anyway, was it supposed to mean pull guard?, or just generally attack?)
You unsuccessfully performed your attack: Not surprising given he was expecting it, why jump on his back, why not sweep him, or throw him.
You failed to see your advantage: When he fell backwards, on you, you're in a back mount, with him on top, once you have your legs locked on it's one of the dominant positions. What could he do? Roll? Yup onto his face with you on top, that is the MOST dominant position. You can do what you want and he can't really do very much other than roll or throw weak elbows, he can't see very well, and he's open for a choke, locks, you can punch him in the head, neck and back.
Would you like me to go on...?
Your "Rule of the Wild" because of that event actually proves the reverse if you don't eliminate you being psyched out. You didn't believe you could win, there was nothing you've said in there that makes me think you were in anything but an equal to dominant position throughout, but you clearly didn't see that at the time. It actually makes me question how experienced you were before this event occurred, which goes back to my first statement about your instructor being an idiot.
Look at the real "Wild", Moose 1500lbs of meat are killed by these two lone predators bears 6' long weighing 700-800lbs, Wolverine 3' long weighing 20-55lbs. If your rule of the wild were accurate, then neither bears, nor wolverines would kill and eat Moose, as the Moose is bigger, stronger and heavier.
Nope the "Rule of the Wild" that I've seen in the actual wild is the nastiest, orneriest, and stubbornest is the one that carries the day, its not the prettiest victory, but it's a victory.
I can comment on a few things:
My instructor has 20 years experience teaching BJJ, and more in other styles / arts, taught by internationally known masters and spent time in the military. So he has experience, and I'd like to believe he wasn't an idiot. His techniques seemed to work (and knew how to make it hurt just enough / told us to tap out / teach us).
His point was, he is bigger, stronger, and more experienced, so in most situations, I will lose. That much is certain.
Yes, we learned how to nullify certain advantages of the opponent being bigger, stronger, and in many cases more experienced. In his words "the ground never misses" and he was kind enough to play the loser to demonstrate for us how to do it right. ... but that misses the point that you have to get the guy on the ground first. If you manage to get a guy in a doorway or coming out of a narrow corridor or at the top of some stairs, it would be pretty easy to knock him off balance and put him into submission. But how often is a burglar going to conveniently do that and let you get set up to do that? Let's face it, many home invasions are done by guys who have street experience, and either have knives or come packing. I don't care HOW good you are, unless you have a REAL good drop on him beforehand you're gonna lose. His advice was, assume he has the same or more real world fighting experience as you, and assume he is stronger than he looks. If it's just him with no weapons, you have a chance. With weapons, practice your run-fu.
Another thing that gets overlooked that he points out ... many times, home invasions are carried out by more than one person. BJJ and other hand to hand skills do good against 1 person at a time, but against multiple you get dwindling returns unless the folks are complete newbies.
And his point with the "law of nature" business (probably could use a better way of talking about it, I get your nature example) is that with people there's inherent assumptions you have to make and take calculated risks whenever you do fight. If you have to resort to it, he said, most of the time you did something wrong, because it's always easier to give the guy your wallet or valuables in exchange for you staying alive, or you weren't fast enough. The other < 1% situations where you did do the right thing but still have to resort to it, the other guy is crazy / SHTF.
In his example, his point was don't try to go doing something stupid when you obviously are outclassed or outgunned. You'll likely wind up hurt bad, or dead.
For what it's worth, afterward he then followed up and said "try again" but this time sweep him to the ground and do a arm bar or pin his back, while keeping fluid since if you tense up you're like wood and easier to throw off, whereas if you're fluid it's more like a water filled plastic membrane; may not weigh as much but is difficult to control/subdue. 170 lb average guy took down bigger 6'2" 220 lb lean guy and tapped out. Lesson learned.
Sooo at any rate, I think the point others are making is, unless you have very favorable surroundings / situations in these scenarios, it is much harder to win using only hand to hand or even stabbing weapons. As others say, don't bring a knife to a gun fight or your fists to a knife fight.
As someone that has some training in MA's and knows quite a few that have more than I, you realize that BJJ is quite good against 1-1 as in the UFC cage, but doesn't hold up often in street fight or SD application. Try a take down on concrete like my co-worker's friend whom is a Gracie blue belt and he is still in therapy from the damage he did to himself pulling that move on concrete.
And you're point being? The poster I was responding to was in a 1:1 training exercise, I'd expect on either mats and a sprung floor. My point being that he was defeated by himself, and it had nothing to do with his opponent being bigger and stronger, he was even in advantageous positions, but failed to capitalize, that's not a failing of size and strength, it's a failing of the brain.
I personally don't study BJJ, I always felt that it was Judo with more ground work focus, so didn't see the point. Not that I don't understand the concepts, just it seemed irrelevant to my personal goals.
Your co-workers friend might be in therapy pulling a back drop on concrete, it probably wasn't the smartest move he'd ever done. However I may have pulled the same move if I had no alternative but die, better to be in therapy than dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado xxxxx
You made my point already with analogy of 3 wild animals attacking a larger one. That "moose" could be a black belt in Gracie BJJ and the pack of wolverines with no training are still going to take it in an attack. If it were me I would learn that nastiest form of fighting/SD and if attacked hit and run not stick around to prove the great fighter as you never know if one of those people approaching the altercation is a friend of the attacker which you are beating 1-1 with BJJ.
Pack of Wolverines, that's funny... I've only ever seen one living, and apparently I'm lucky it didn't try to eat me. No I was talking about a moose being killed and eaten by a bear, or a moose being killed and eaten by a Wolverine, not one moose attacked by both at the same time (that would kinda negate the point) and likely leave the moose to wander off while the Wolverine and Bear discussed precedence.
Wolverines are solitary predators, indeed there's the report of one such alpha M3 that broke IN to an ultra heavy trap of constructed of 8" logs to kill it's rival. Here's a link to M3's known activities (somewhat romaticized for easy consumption, but all factual events). Grizzlies are most often solitary predators. So if you comprehend my point, It proves the "Law of the Wild" being the biggest and strongest wins, it's fallacious, in a confrontation with a Moose a solitary wolverine according to that law is toast, but they're often not, it's the Moose that's toast, same thing applies with a Grizzly in a confrontation with a Moose, it should according to that law be toast, but they're not, once again the Moose is.
As I said in my previous posting, who's more likely to win in a confrontation between an SAS, SEAL, DELTA trooper armed with a spoon and someone else who has a Whizz-Bang rifle, lets adapt that a bit, who's going to win in a confrontation between Brock Lesnar and the same trooper (my money's on the same result for the same guy). Why is that? Because Brock or Mr Rifle Guy has to sleep, has to pee, has to take a crap, has to wash, get water, eat. Basically because the Spec-Ops guy is going to pick his time and place when he has all of the advantages, size is irrelevant to that.
I deliberately left pack predators out of the equation for the purposes of my illustration, because I knew some smarty pants would state, "oh but they're pack animals".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado xxxxx
If the OP doesn't want to carry a gun, fine some nasty SD skills and a knife will better equalize those odds against multiple attackers.
If you look objectively what works if you cut off someone airway they are done, whether by choke, knife hand chop, stabbing. If someone can't see their chances of an effective attack against you are much diminished. Kick them in the balls that works against some, but against someone hopped up on drugs not so well in some cases.
Which as I stated in my previous post, you need to prepare your defenses IF you suspect you could have intruders with firearms, and you for whatever reason don't want to use them. Ideally you'd be similarly armed, but in that situation without a tactical advantage, all other things being equal the person with the longer range weapon will win (which is the "Law of the Wild" with firearms), so we should all be toting 50BMG's.
However there are many many examples of people prevailing against what according to the stats said they should have lost, yet didn't. There are hundreds if not thousands of examples of this, from large scale examples of the Mongol invasion of Russia and Eastern Europe, to the Finns during the Winter War, to small scale examples like old women fighting off attackers with nothing but their handbag. Sure we tend to dismiss that the old woman beating off an attacker with a handbag, and see it as a joke, and if anything accuse the attacker of being weak, but it does happen, and it's not that the attacker is weak, but that the old woman is strong, this fries the attackers OODA loop, as it's unexpected, and deflects his plan.
Sorry for being gone so long.
What I kinda meant was something I can keep under the pillow or near the bed ...without fear of pepper spraying myself in the middle of the night.
TONS of good talk though.
A spear was funny. "Hey, honey, lay down with me, wait! WATCH OUT! ....OH!!!
That's gotta hurt."
I have no fear of home invasion with guns, in that case I'm, ****ed. Even with an arsenal, if I'm asleep and they're silent...
But late at night as I sleep ...some hoodlum scum**** may think he can enter my house. Don't even have the money to cover the repairs for the house, so, 1,500 may seem like pocket change to some, but to me, would be a dream come true ...for the house and kids. And, that's where it'd go first.
So many good responses on here, can't 'rep' them all...or even respond.
I don't trust myself with a gun. I have mood swings and have been told by an AA member never to buy a gun. Truth, embarrassing as it is to admit.
So, the question...
If you were lying in bed and found someone coming through your window....
What would you grab...besides a gun.
That you could keep next to you in your bed?
Question 2: If you heard screams and woke up, running for your child's bedroom, what would you grab?
Again, you've already given me tons of advice. Can't afford a gun and training, and anyways, would have to keep it locked up, for the children's safety, so....don't even see the point if you have 5 seconds to respond as you see someone coming in your door.
Just wanted to clarify the question.
Sorry for not making it more specific,
or stopping in sooner.
THANKS.
Last edited by FaceInTheCrowd; 12-10-2012 at 01:42 PM..
So many good responses on here, can't 'rep' them all...or even respond.
I don't trust myself with a gun. I have mood swings and have been told by an AA member never to buy a gun. Truth, embarrassing as it is to admit.
A close family member of mine is in AA and I can only guess what life is like for an alcoholic. He wandered around in his profession for years, stepping on a lot of toes in the process. Now he'll probably have to settle for a different career, and lost two wives in the process.
Since you are doing your best trying to deal with an addiction, my first point of advice would be to carry your cellphone close to your bed to dial 911. All modern cellphones have GPS in them and can triangulate to within a few meters, so they will find you, even if you have to hang up quickly.
Second thing is $1500 seems like a lot of money, but how much IS your family's life worth? Money can always be re-earned, and burglars seldom come back for seconds (increasing risks / decreasing rewards with each hit). If I was given the choice of $15000 or a child's life, I'd give the $15000 away (THEN kick myself in the butt for keeping that much money in the house, but that's besides the point).
Lastly, I think you already got the answer you were looking for. My vote would be pepper spray and taser. Even if you got up in a fit of rage due to alcohol abuse, few people would die from pepper spray or taser, whereas folks very well could die from a knife.
Sorry for being gone so long.
What I kinda meant was something I can keep under the pillow or near the bed ...without fear of pepper spraying myself in the middle of the night.
What would you grab...besides a gun.
That you could keep next to you in your bed?
For your specific circumstance as you describe it, probably the best weapon I can think of is a policeman's baton.
Versitile, effective, and there are videos out there on how to use them so you can get some rudimentary training without taking a class.
Those batons can break bone, crack skulls, disarm, control, parry and defend against edged weapons, and have proven effective on the streets for many many years.
For your specific circumstance as you describe it, probably the best weapon I can think of is a policeman's baton.
Versitile, effective, and there are videos out there on how to use them so you can get some rudimentary training without taking a class.
Those batons can break bone, crack skulls, disarm, control, parry and defend against edged weapons, and have proven effective on the streets for many many years.
Lots of models to choose from, but my favorite style is only around $20, +/-.
A shotgun is much better, but if you have no choice.... better than nothing anyways.
I would go aluminum bat over police baton, better grip and can wind up more, if you know how to swing a bat. Shotgun is good because you don't have to aim and can get one for around $200 on sale, if the OP was open to a gun.
A close family member of mine is in AA and I can only guess what life is like for an alcoholic. He wandered around in his profession for years, stepping on a lot of toes in the process. Now he'll probably have to settle for a different career, and lost two wives in the process.
Since you are doing your best trying to deal with an addiction, my first point of advice would be to carry your cellphone close to your bed to dial 911. (1) All modern cellphones have GPS in them and can triangulate to within a few meters, so they will find you, even if you have to hang up quickly.
(2)Second thing is $1500 seems like a lot of money, but how much IS your family's life worth? Money can always be re-earned, and burglars seldom come back for seconds (increasing risks / decreasing rewards with each hit). If I was given the choice of $15000 or a child's life, I'd give the $15000 away (THEN kick myself in the butt for keeping that much money in the house, but that's besides the point).
Lastly, I think you already got the answer you were looking for. My vote would be pepper spray and taser. Even if you got up in a fit of rage due to alcohol abuse, few people would die from pepper spray or taser, whereas folks very well could die from a knife.
It's basically a crawling nightmare...and you are the only one to blame.
1 ~ Well, I guess they'll know where to look for the bodies.
2 ~ We don't have 1,500. It's just not there. We're actually in debt.
....one of those underwater homes. Barely making ends meet.
But, thanks for the response.
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