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Old 04-01-2013, 10:01 AM
 
751 posts, read 789,453 times
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I start gun lessons the middle of this month. We are required to bring any guns we own to the instructor's house for a review before the lesson. He will evaluate them. He said he has had people bring guns that were much too powerful for a beginner, or were not in a safe conditon, and he needs to know how may guns he will need to supply.

This is going to be interesting. I told him I have guns from my grandfather (he was a cop in Vicksburg and fought in WWI), my dad (park ranger and avid hunter who fought in WWII), my husband (regular army) and a gun my husband bought for me to carry in my car when I worked the nightshift - it's big and ugly.

First eight hours will be learning about different guns and ammo. We will dry shoot guns, disassemble and clean them. He said that the gun lodge is saving guns for us to clean.

We will have eight hours of law and practical applications.

Then - we will go to the shooting range for 2 hours. After that, we will be able to complete the concealed carry permit request.

He requires a total of 8 hours at the shooting range, and that we become proficient with our guns before he will sign off on the permits. Obviously, we will need to be able to hit what we are shooting at!


He also teaches 'shoot, don't shoot' courses that involve simulations as well as live situations. (Okay, I will admit it. I am looking forward to working my way thru a fake town shooting the bad guys).

After I complete these courses, I can elect to sign up for his long gun courses. Life is going to be interesting!

Did any of you take this kind of training? How effective was it?
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:27 AM
 
19,122 posts, read 21,273,405 times
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Do not allow the sale of any of your guns to this guy....... Not on a casual basis.... Not even if a offer sounds too good to believe.

Say these are heirlooms and you may consider the offer, and let it go at that.

My motivation is i just don't want you to be cheated.

You could have some very valuable items.....

Some of these could be very collectible and worth a lot more than you may suspect.

In fact i would start off only bring in any guns you may consider as useful to the course at first.

If you like i am sure there are guys here with smarts enough to assist you in what you have.

It is safe to make a list of company names and modles but with no serial numbers showing not in text unless requested by someone you trust in a dm

Or texting a rough serial number like 1234xxx and not the entire number for your own security.

IE say for a older shot gun


Winchester Model 12 in 16 gauge ser number 543xxx is safe.

A picture of it with no detail showing the serial number is safe.



Detasils as to high figure or metal work are safe


We straight?
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:28 AM
 
Location: Where the mountains touch the sky
4,627 posts, read 5,389,895 times
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I have had quite a bit of training, various kinds, (military, etc.) but not the specific course you are describing. It sounds like a good beginners course, especially learning to care for the weapons. Amazing how many people don't realize that you need to clean and oil, (depending on circumstance) your weapons to maintain them.
In my state it is legal to carry concealed outside of cities, towns and logging camps , and you can open carry just about anywhere except where the store or whatever post No Weapons, so to me the concealed carry only tells the authorities that I have weapons and doesn't do much else for most of my needs, so I don't have one.

Make sure he has Snap Caps for your weapons when you dry fire. It is usually safe, but in older weapons like you describe, dry firing can break the firing pin.

A snap cap is just a plastic cartridge chambered for your weapon with a cap that mimics the primer to absorb the force from the pin moving forward safely.

It is dangerous to dry fire a bow as well, just a little extra information.

It sounds to me like you will have a well balanced course, the instructions you put up are indicate to me someone that is very familier with firearms and wants to do a very inclusive course.

Have fun and don't be afraid to ask questions

(Shoot don't shoot courses are a blast! but remember, in a real world situation the targets don't get reset so use the training to really give you a feel for if you are in that situation).
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:42 AM
 
19,122 posts, read 21,273,405 times
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Next what ever you bring at first be sure it is not loaded.... If you think a gun you will bring may be loaded and don't know how to unload it safely don't even touch it. Ask here instead.

When you do bring a gun over there it should be in a case, and the case should be locked in your car hidden from view, as well as anything else like ammo, and there shall be no sign that there is a gun or any ammo visible by looking thru the glass of your vehicle.

No hand gun shall be placed in a purse until such time as you have a ccw permit valid in your state.

Getting busted by the cops for a bad tail light to get busted because the cops sees a gun in your hand bag will give you a real bad hair day.

If you get pulled over for any reason in the way to or from that class do not tell the cops you have a fire are period, and if they ask lie.

So long as the gun is in a case and locked up not loaded you are not breaking any laws at all and can pass thru any states you like....

Having ALL gun related items hidden from view is far better than not,. doing that stops answering any questions, and you do not want to be answering any question to the police about what is yours.

It also stop thieves from spotting anything gun related.

When i go anywhere with a gun (every day i go anywhere) Any times i get out of what ever i got, I look back for a sign of anything that looks interesting to a would be thief. I consider cops would be thieves too, and have even seen then steal things from vehicles before with my wife as a witness and other by standers.

I don't leave a gun in a vehicle if i enter the PO either... yeah there is a law..... so what and who could tell I was armed????

I believe it is far better to have that gun on me than locked up outside where i have no control... And if there is someone in there going postal I can at least defend myself if not the post master too.

But never admit this in a post office.

You don't need 55,000 sheep bleating gun gun gun over there, gun it's evil, a gun a gun gun gun gun over there.

Anyway, way to go and why don't you see if you can't get a girlfriend of yours to go too..
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Old 04-01-2013, 11:21 AM
 
19,122 posts, read 21,273,405 times
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Silvertips is a great guy and knows his stuff well and can be trusted no matter what anyone else says IMO..

I agree and you will be told it is safe to dry fire guns with no Snap Caps, and sometimes that is true and sometimes it is not so true and you will break parts and shock work harden parts and they will crack or break. This is very true of older guns made by S&W and or Colt guns likely you may have.

Also recoil is something that will you will need to absorb and not fear. You can see a lot of women on youtube that have never fired a gun come to the pint of getting hurt and being knocked down, which doesn't have to be.

They fear the recoil.

You need to be steady, hold the gun firmly with out choking it, and lean into a gun that will recoil.

Stiffen your elbows if it is a hand gun and let the gun roll in recoil in both hands, and not let your elbows be locked but not let them freely move upwards either. Hold firmly and expect recoil.

With a long gun that recoil (rifle / shot gun) expect more recoil. Pull that gun snug into your shoulder!

Do not try to hold that long gun off your should to avoid the hit. That will just get you hit 10 times harder.

I hate it when new people are hit by recoil from a gun because they were not taught right or they didn't get a lesson in the first place.

With a recoiling long gun shouldered well, your body just rolls with recoil and a slight built person can with stand harder recoil longer than a stout body can.

Think of a basket in a hard windy storm and then the oak tree... Which one breaks?

So pulling the gun into your shoulder totally prevents it from hitting you because it has nowhere to go. It's already there.

Then you lean forward, not backward because you will be shoved backwards and you will have no way to roll with the blow if you are already leaning backwards.

When you lean into the blow enough and take that blow you will end up vertical like normal not flat on your back.

Some of the ladies i have seen on youtube look like they take a wicked bad beating for just shooting one rnd and some fire several rounds wildly as they fall...

Real scary stuff! Nothing funny about it, but youtube is what youtube is.

I would avoid more than one bullet at time in a gun that is semi auto and recoils hard, until you see what recoil is.

I taught little 90 pounds Kate to shoot a Govt Model .45 and she had that recoil tamed before she shot the first rnd.

I set her up with her stance, she used both hands, her shoulders were square to the target, Her knees were bent a bit, as she leaned forward into the gun. her right hand grasped the grips with her trigger finger above the trigger guard pointed at the bullseye.

her left hand cupped the magazine in the bottom of the grip and her fingers gasped lower parts of he right hand lower fingers to insure a good grip. The WEB of the thumb was low enough the hammer would not BITE her when the slide slammed back and she held the gun out well away from her face.


Knowing the loaded mag was in my pocket and there was no mag inserted in the grip, I stood ahead of her but off to the side, and told her i was going to wack the muzzle like recoil and that she had to stay as close to that ready to fire position as possible, and to not drop the gun on the blanket she was standing on.....

I don't like to take a lot of risks....

So I hit the gun and she rolled back a bit and cane right back into the stance and i wacked the gun again with out telling her and she just rolled back like the first time, but her eyes got big LOL

But she came right back and I wacked that slide 3 times fast and she just rolled back and grinned.

Then I loaded the mag with just 1 round..... She shot that target dead center.... Turned at me pointing the gun in my face and I grasped it and point it away and down I knew she would do that.

I know newbies will be surprised by the sound of the blast the recoil and see their better than expected results and get silly stupid.

I think it is better to not flood the mind with a lot more rules at first and let events take place because when i moved that gun away and down she sure didn't need to be told again, and i didn't need to say a word about it. The look on her face was plenty enough.

Since i knew that was coming I never let the gun get pointed into my face directly and I also knew there were no more rounds and the slide was locked back out of battery.


But she didn't know that. She was ashamed and i could see it. I just had her eject that spent mag and insert another with 2 rnds....

She shot both of these slow.... Both hit the target 1/2 inch from the first.

Then I moved on to 5 shots and told her to shoot all of them as fast as she could... That cut the target right up the center but higher each shot.

When that mag was done we took a break and changed the target for a new one. When she was rested she inserted another mag and pulled the slide herself this time which ended up being the hardest part for her to do to run this gun, The slide spring is a bit stiff.

I had 6 rnds in the mag this time and she knew it. I told her to shoot 2 time pause and shoot 2 times and pause, and 2 last times. To take all the time in a pause as she liked.

She did as i expected, better shooting than I do myself, and that pretty much ended that days lesson.

later when she was ready I created stress, but i didn't have a whole town to do it..... Lots of things can cause stress pretty easy, just by asking simple questions like what will you have for dinner is hard to answer, when you are trying to hit a target with a gun just as you are squeezing off a rnd..


I know this is long but I hope it helps.
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Old 04-01-2013, 12:52 PM
 
2,878 posts, read 3,680,696 times
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A short course like that will not prepare you to confidently handle a weapon if a bad situation were to arise. Some states (like Florida) have pretty lax standards on who can get a CC permit. Others, like Texas, are much more stringent. I am firm believer in good education and lots of practice. If you do not practice, the 2 hrs at the range and the few spent handling the gun in your course will be forgotten very quickly.

However, a course like this is a good start. Then you are on your own afterwards - go to the range or shoot on your own property if you have the acreage and zoning/ordinances (if any) allow it.

Try to shoot as many weapons as possible before you choose which gun to purchase. Understand that not every handgun will match every purpose you may have for it. Finally, it is always nice to get a handgun that fires cheap, readily available ammo. If you become infected with the shooting bug - you will move on to reloading your ammo as it is much cheaper than buying it....

You can also try and seek out a Cowboy Action Shooting group near you. These folks are always fun and have all sorts of weapons to handle. You will make some great friends AND have a blast (no pun intended!)

My $.02
OD
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Old 04-01-2013, 04:17 PM
 
Location: Cody, WY
9,142 posts, read 10,038,397 times
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Get far away from that self-appointed big shot. Call other people who are giving the course if you believe that you must have a government permission slip to exercise a natural and fundamental right. Take the shortest and least onerous course you can find, then practice on your own.

Every day of the year people with no training whatsoever successfully defend themselves with guns. The mere display of a gun settles 90% of situations. But don't draw until you are prepared to shoot.
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Old 04-01-2013, 06:39 PM
 
Location: SW MO
1,096 posts, read 912,086 times
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Training is good. IF the trainer knows his stuff. I cannot personally see ANY reason for you to bring every gun you own to this class. Particularly since it is a CCW class. The ONLY guns I would bring are guns I might choose to carry concealed(i.e. handguns, concealable ones). There is no good reason for anyone other than you to know everything you have. The most you will be required to train with in any state are a semi-auto pistol and a revolver, and/or any handgun you intend to carry. No other guns need to be shared. Some of my best friends, and even my own children do not know everything I have, simply because they do not need to, and tongues will wag. A simple example, recently a newspaper in NY state printed a list of CCW holders in its area of coverage. What followed were a series of burglaries on houses specific to that list. Not one or two, but several. Six, last I heard. Think about that.

Do you trust this guy enough to give him the key to your house, or the combination to your safe? If not, don't trust him to know what you have. Personally, I would have told him I did not yet own a gun and was waiting until I had some instruction to purchase one, and used the range's guns to qualify. I did exactly that a while back when taking the class myself(I had carried a gun sans permit for 20 years, and only went legit because I am a "guardian" on the security team at my church. Did not want to bring any trouble on the church were I forced to use my weapon at some point.) As far as the instructor knew, at least until the live fire portion of the class, I was a complete neophyte in the world of self-defense. He still has no idea what I know or what I have. I do not need the Office of Emergency Management Coordinator for my county knowing such details, now do I? And you do not need others knowing all that you know or have, either. If that were a good idea, the militaries of the world would all be sharing their technology with one another, eh?

Take what you plan to carry, or use what he can supply. If he makes any noise at all about you not bringing everything you have, RUN, don't walk, from him and find yourself a real instructor. In fact, take the least "fluffy" class you can find, then go spend some money at Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, or Suarez International(my favorite, Gabe runs a top-notch school and you won't have to suffer through any unrealistic exercises or testosterone-dripping "look-at-me-I-am-the-god-of-war" speeches.) There are others, some very good ones. The guys at Magpul run some good courses, and sell video courses so you can see what they are about before attending a class. Do your research and pick carefully, as there are a LOT of folks in this business who are legends in their own minds, and plenty more who can take a sucker's money and teach them little of benefit and much that is detrimental. You will not go wrong with any of the schools mentioned, and there are good guys that are less well-known, too. Spend your coin with reputable trainers, and you will not be sorry. You are planning to learn to defend your life, and the lives of people you care about. There is NOTHING more important to that effort than quality training. Good luck, and feel free to share questions here as needed, we all have diffferent experiences and between us can likely answer anything you need to know.
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Old 04-01-2013, 08:30 PM
 
2,878 posts, read 3,680,696 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by countryboy73 View Post
Training is good. IF the trainer knows his stuff. I cannot personally see ANY reason for you to bring every gun you own to this class. Particularly since it is a CCW class. The ONLY guns I would bring are guns I might choose to carry concealed(i.e. handguns, concealable ones). There is no good reason for anyone other than you to know everything you have. The most you will be required to train with in any state are a semi-auto pistol and a revolver, and/or any handgun you intend to carry. No other guns need to be shared. Some of my best friends, and even my own children do not know everything I have, simply because they do not need to, and tongues will wag. A simple example, recently a newspaper in NY state printed a list of CCW holders in its area of coverage. What followed were a series of burglaries on houses specific to that list. Not one or two, but several. Six, last I heard. Think about that.
A (total) beginner does not know what a good concealed weapon would be. A lot of variables to consider besides the weapon too - such as, what are you preparing for? Can you place the bullet in the right place? Someone who can and has the training and the nerves can get by with a Derringer. Another person could have a .45LC and miss altogether.

I believe some states like TX make a distinction between CCW for a revolver vs a semi. This means that from the get-go you need to decide what you will carry.

Finally - my advice is to get a book on the firearm laws for your state. Read it and re-read it. It may save you aggravation, arrest and worst case scenario - jail time. Quite a few law enforcement officers get aggressive, nervous and scary when there is a weapon involved (quite a few of them are perfectly fine with them too). Also, a few of them may not know the laws properly. It is paramount that you do.

Or you can move to an open carry state . I wish Tejas was one of them.

OD
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Old 04-01-2013, 08:44 PM
 
Location: SW MO
1,096 posts, read 912,086 times
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For clarification, I was referring to guns(particularly long guns) which even a person new to firearms and shooting would be able to rule out as CCW appropriate. Countrysue stated that participants were required to bring ANY guns they own to this guy's house for evaluation. I took this to mean ALL guns. Shotguns, rifles, Colt Buntlines, 9-1/2" Ruger Redhawks, etc. No need to bring obviously inappropriate weapons for this guy to evaluate.

Laws governing this activity and your knowledge of them ARE important, and not to be overlooked.
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