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We have had our disagreements here in the forum. However, I want all of you to know that even though we go back and forth here, I value a lot of your opinions and advice and insights. Even when we argue, I like most of you - I just hate the ragging on this or that group of people - would much more like to figure out how to get people to a better place instead of just pointing out that they are in a bad place now (I suppose part of fixing the problem is realizing that there is a problem but I think we all agree we have problems...).
In any case, I am curious what you all think about the following: when I lived in Florida, I lived in an unincorporated area where most of the lots were 1.5-2 acres. In my opinion, these lots could have provided most of the stuff a family would need in terms of veggies and fruits (at least tropical fruits but that would be enough), esp. given Florida's long growing season. On 2 acres one could also have a goat or two and chickens. Being Florida with a lot of sun, you would think everyone would have been on solar. Water was easy to come by, wells were pretty shallow. All in all, the whole population of that unincorporated town could have fed itself and produced all the energy they needed. Heck, the unincorporated area housed thousands of families and if they all produced and the land was used efficiently, they could have fed another town or two, besides themselves
Why didn't they? Instead, a lot of them chose crappy jobs in town, miserable existence working for someone else, driving 30-40 miles a day to get to the work site and then back etc. They relinquished all control of their food and energy supply to someone else. Why?
Same there where I am now. My neighbor to the left has 75 acres and all they have is 2 pet horses and a pet donkey. They do not hunt the deer on their land (it is legal), they don't grow veggies, no solar (I am in SW USA so lots of sun), no fruit trees, no nothin'. Many other neighbors around with parcels large and small and I think maybe 2% of the whole population of 3,000 has a veggie garden. If people have anything it may be goats but they are raised for shows or commercially and if a ranch is big they have cattle but a lot of them do it for tax exemptions and sometimes as a commercial outfit but they do not grow gardens, have no solar etc.
Again, why not?
Furthermore, is there a business model that would allow a person to help people setting all the self-sufficient stuff up, make a living doing that (not after getting rich, just make a living and help people)? When I lived in FL, I contemplated renting out people's backyards to plant veggies and fruits on them and pay them with the portion of the bounty. Opinions?
Why not? It is expensive and time consuming. I don't know what you would have to grow on 1 1/2 acres that it would provide enough cash for doctors and to pay the property taxes. Maybe you could do it growing marijuana, but that comes with a whole different set of problems.
Growing your own food and using solar power is a lifestyle choice. It's not really done as an economic measure.
I am one of the people who grows a lot of my own food. A late freeze wiped out my fruit crop this year and most of my veggies. If there were no salary coming in every month, we would have been darn hungry this year.
One last thought: I've met a lot of people who tell me that they don't eat fruits or vegetables. Not much reason for them to grow their own.
A word of advice, stop advising your neighbors to get goats and chickens because you will have to put up with the noise and all the flies and stench caused by poor animal husbandry. My life experience is that a lot of people who get animals never take proper care of them.
All that said, I highly recommend that you put in fruit trees and a good veggie garden, because I suspect that it is worth the extra work to you.
Very simply, self-sufficiency, which is essentially subsistence agriculture, has never been very popular with most Americans except in some limited periods of time (like the early 1800s) and in some limited geographical areas, primarily in the Appalachians, in parts of the Ohio Valley, and other isolated areas in the South, because it's awfully hard work for not a lot of tangible gain. American farmers have always preferred specialized commercial agriculture to produce commodities to be turned into cash, from tobacco and then cotton in the South to dairy in the Northeast to corn in the Midwest to wheat and cattle in the West.
People move to rural areas for a variety of reasons, but "living off the land" or "living off the grid" is simply not often one of them. I myself would prefer to have more space, more quiet, more nature, and a more laid-back lifestyle.
I already own rural land, the old family farm, and I may retire there in a couple of years. It's on a paved road about 4 miles from a nice-sized town. I'd site my house to take advantage of passive solar heating plus have a covered, screened back porch from which to watch birds and wildlife. I'd have a wood-burning fireplace because I can get wood free from the woodlot. I'd have a large veggie garden and a large perennial border around the house and "yard". I'd have a fire ring and a swimming pond. My idea of self-sufficiency would be having a propane/natural gas generator that would automatically kick in if the power went out.
Why not? It is expensive and time consuming. I don't know what you would have to grow on 1 1/2 acres that it would provide enough cash for doctors and to pay the property taxes. Maybe you could do it growing marijuana, but that comes with a whole different set of problems.
Growing your own food and using solar power is a lifestyle choice. It's not really done as an economic measure.
I am one of the people who grows a lot of my own food. A late freeze wiped out my fruit crop this year and most of my veggies. If there were no salary coming in every month, we would have been darn hungry this year.
One last thought: I've met a lot of people who tell me that they don't eat fruits or vegetables. Not much reason for them to grow their own.
A word of advice, stop advising your neighbors to get goats and chickens because you will have to put up with the noise and all the flies and stench caused by poor animal husbandry. My life experience is that a lot of people who get animals never take proper care of them.
All that said, I highly recommend that you put in fruit trees and a good veggie garden, because I suspect that it is worth the extra work to you.
Thanks for sharing your opinion
I already have a nice sized veggie garden and a lot of other self-sufficiency stuff. I also have a job, so does my wife. I work from home now but even when I lived in Florida I had a big veggie garden and fruit trees. If you are set up properly, a lot of the tedious work can be automated away (think drip irrigation instead of standing there with the hose for hours, for example).
I hear you on the poor animal husbandry
Anyways, my question is motivated more by this: a lot of folks moan about the government butting into their lives. I moan about corporations AND the government in bed, butting into our lives. I moan about the tainted food supply chain, the massive chemical experiment perpetrated on the population by the food and seed companies and the government that has been paid off to allow that. People moan about electric bills, about being dependent etc. But, I also think that pure hate of the people who are dependent is not healthy, I think we should be trying to find ways to get them to be more independent.
The obvious solution is to produce your own (energy, food etc.). What kind of a (business) model will it take to do this?
So, I hear you - Americans are lazy and disinterested and in many instances uneducated. If I had an army of people to send to each person's yard and plant stuff in it with the promise of 1/2 of the bounty feeding them healthy foods all for just getting a piece of their yard - would that be a viable model?
The price difference between feedlot cattle and grass fed field cattle isn't that much in dollar terms.
But people don't demand it, so they do it less and less.
Hmm.
Last time I went to a grocery store a paid a pretty hefty premium for the organic stuff. A pound of organic potatoes was almost 1.5-2 times a pound of the triple-doused cardboard looking conventionally grown match. I eat little meat but when I do I buy the true grass fed stuff, the one that has never seen the grain and a pound of that is 4-6 times more than a pound of your everyday Walmart-style stuff.
The demand for the organic stuff is driven by the wealthy people who can afford it. Anyone who has tried to feed a family of four on all organic food can tell you that the grocery bill is 3-4 times higher than your conventional stuff. Even stuff that is marketed as "natural" or "no sugar added" or "no salt added" carries a premium. I mean, you take out a component and it costs less .
iIf you start going into the boxed and processed stuff, food is cheap, I agree but I guess you end up paying more for the pharmaceuticals down the road to fix you after a life long diet of the low level junk, no?
Real food, organic and pesticide and chemical free is not cheap!
Thanks for replying
Learn to cook. Processed food is expensive and not particularly healthy. If it comes in a box, it's a waste of money.
In 1950, food consumed 30% of the typical household income. Now it is less than 10%. If your grocery bill is not reflecting that, it's because you are buying paper, cans and boxes instead of food.
The price difference between feedlot cattle and grass fed field cattle isn't that much in dollar terms.
But people don't demand it, so they do it less and less.
All cattle are grass fed. They are only sent to a feed lot for the last 3 months or so, to fatten them up to make a better USDA grade. They are also more profitable, since fat is cheaper than muscle. It's easy to buy grass finished beef if you deal directly with the farmer. If there is no USDA inspected slaughterhouse nearby, you will have to buy a whole, half or quarter animal and contract the cutting and wrapping yourself. It will be marked "Not For Resale". If there is a USDA inspected facility close by, you can just buy the cuts you want.
Hogs are generally farmed, but most of the USA now has a real feral hog problem. If you go shoot one yourself, it will be range fed. The same is true of hunting deer. White tail deer are becoming a scourge in many parts of the country. Wild game is healthier than beef. The up front expense of buying a rifle or shotgun and becoming proficient with it is high, but many areas allow multiple deer to be taken, so you can fill a freezer with little problem.
Just spend some research time learning how to take care of a carcass. My joke is that it shouldn't be called "hunting," it should be called "gutting." Taking care of a carcass so you don't ruin the flavor of the meat requires knowledge.
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- I just hate the ragging on this or that group of people - would much more like to figure out how to get people to a better place instead of just pointing out that they are in a bad place now (I suppose part of fixing the problem is realizing that there is a problem but I think we all agree we have problems...).
