Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
In the Rome medicine reached a level during the fourth century that wouldn't be seen again until the late nineteenth century. However, the Roman civilization collapsed. Many have assigned two of the major causes as unfettered immigration from less civilized cultures and decay of the moral fiber which includes the work ethic. There was not only a renaissance in medicine during the late nineteenth century but in all areas of technology.
From 1790 to 1860 almost 50,000 patents were issued in this country. That's quite a number until we learn that from 1860 to 1890 over 500,000 patents were issued.
Wealthy inustrialists contributed not only to economic growth but to cultural life. John D. Rockefeller contributed 50% of his fortune; Andrew Canegie contributed 90% of his.
The top 2% controlled 50% of the nation's wealth, but average wages increased 53% meausured in constant dollars between 1860 and 1900.
Irish and Italians, among others, quickly embraced the new opportunities and enjoyed upward mobility. Two sets of my Irish great-grandparents, Catholic besides, sent at least one child to college.
Physicians learned that germs cause infection and disease.
The number of farms tripled between 1860 and 1900 from two million to six million.
In 1860 a journey from New York to San Fransisco could take six months; in 1880 it took six days.
By 1880 the US went ahead of Great Britain in industrial production while the standard of living of workers exceeded it as well.`
Each generation had more wealth, more education. and more opportumities than previous generations.
I could continue for hundreds of pages.
- Over 302,000 patents were granted in 2013 alone. Clearly, we need to return to 2013!
- Plenty of wealthy people also contribute their wealth today - the Bill and Melissa Gates Foundation for example.
- Wages increases and wealth: This one IS a problem in our time period, though back then whole classes of the population were dirt poor and had no real opportunities
- Immigrants often had horrible jobs and terrible living conditions. Sure, they worked their way out of it, but that doesn't mean we should return to the days when life stunk for them.
- Physicians are learning equally amazing things today - do some research. We can cure problems today that weren't even understood a generation ago.
- Yes, transportation did progress a lot back then. But, hey - we're still working towards space flight and may have a return of super-sonic aircraft eventually. Some part of the world also have some amazingly fast train systems.
- We're still ahead of Great Britain in industrial output, but, yes, this era was one of great importance for building America.
- Each generation having more opportunity than the previous: THIS is the one thing, as mentioned in my previous post, that is missing today that did exist back then. As bad as life often was in the 1880's - particularly if you were not a straight, white male of a specific religion - there was a larger chance of upward mobility. Admittedly, some of that comes from so many people being on the bottom since there's no place to go but up, but these days we have more people slipping down the socio-economic ladder than moving up as wealth continues to be extracted and given to the rich businesses and as jobs continue to vanish.
- Each generation having more opportunity than the previous: THIS is the one thing, as mentioned in my previous post, that is missing today that did exist back then. As bad as life often was in the 1880's - particularly if you were not a straight, white male of a specific religion - there was a larger chance of upward mobility. Admittedly, some of that comes from so many people being on the bottom since there's no place to go but up, but these days we have more people slipping down the socio-economic ladder than moving up as wealth continues to be extracted and given to the rich businesses and as jobs continue to vanish.
This is a problem of the wealth gap - for majority of people upward mobility is lower now than in "socialist" places we laugh at (like Canada). That's what happens when 1% of the population controls everything (don't forget 1% of the population controlled everything in Soviet Union too).
"Back then" low hanging fruit was available for the picking and this is why growth was unlimited. Land was unlimited too, a cattle baron like Charlie Goodnight could show up in Palo Duro canyon, TX and declare its 100,000 acres to be his - just like that. Try that today. There is also the question of laws and regulations - we have many more on the books today - from environmental to labor to anti-trust. None of those existed back then - hence anyone could do whatever they wanted at the expense of the environment, animals, people...
Finally, the connection between money and politics today (lobbying) has been perverted to the point where it is destroying the country as opposed to providing a basic vehicle for a citizen to influence his representative. Hence, jobs are gone, American corporations sit on mountains of cash outside of the country and avoid taxation, manufacturing is all but gone. Contrast that to a place like Germany which has kept its manufacturing and leading role in cutting edge production - they are also able to provide free education and nationalized healthcare to all their citizens at the same time as well as a high standard of living. While we bicker and fight about guns and religion and abortion and gay rights (things other advanced countries have long resolved), the world is marching on...
This is a problem of the wealth gap - for majority of people upward mobility is lower now than in "socialist" places we laugh at (like Canada). That's what happens when 1% of the population controls everything (don't forget 1% of the population controlled everything in Soviet Union too).
"Back then" low hanging fruit was available for the picking and this is why growth was unlimited. Land was unlimited too, a cattle baron like Charlie Goodnight could show up in Palo Duro canyon, TX and declare its 100,000 acres to be his - just like that. Try that today. There is also the question of laws and regulations - we have many more on the books today - from environmental to labor to anti-trust. None of those existed back then - hence anyone could do whatever they wanted at the expense of the environment, animals, people...
Finally, the connection between money and politics today (lobbying) has been perverted to the point where it is destroying the country as opposed to providing a basic vehicle for a citizen to influence his representative. Hence, jobs are gone, American corporations sit on mountains of cash outside of the country and avoid taxation, manufacturing is all but gone. Contrast that to a place like Germany which has kept its manufacturing and leading role in cutting edge production - they are also able to provide free education and nationalized healthcare to all their citizens at the same time as well as a high standard of living. While we bicker and fight about guns and religion and abortion and gay rights (things other advanced countries have long resolved), the world is marching on...
Just curious,
You were born and raised in the socialist utopia of Yugoslavia, you were already living in paradise, so why emigrate to such a horrid place (in your opinion) as the United States if you already had free healthcare, free college etc.?
You could have also gone to any of the other "worker's paradises" of the former soviet block, or even to one of the nordic socialist countries, SO why come to the decadent West?
You could have also gone to any of the other "worker's paradises" of the former soviet block, or even to one of the nordic socialist countries, SO why come to the decadent West?
Obviously, I came here to annoy YOU! To bring you to a point where you reduce the debate to personal attacks and show your true self
By the way, nordic countries are not socialist, they are capitalist and they are "West" as much as Germany or Britain or USA. Shows the extent of your education
Not an attack, just curious as you seem to have a visceral dislike for the US, but you emmigrated here voluntarily.
I did mention the nordic socialist countries as well in my question.
It just strikes me as unusual that a person who is already in a place where they already have all the things you deem "worthy" would move to a place with none of those things.
You enjoy attacking folks that want to provide for themselves including taking care of their own medical bills and education without government interference, or being forced at gunpoint to pay for others care, so it begs the question, why leave the socialist utopia of Europe to come to a land you appear to despise?
Why should it matter to you that Nor'Eastah or I worked through college and paid for it instead of partying and chasing women? We, invested our time so we wouldn't have student loans chasing us the rest of our lives.
I for one don't go the sawbones unless there's no other choice, but when I do, I have catastrophic insurance and for other issues I pay cash.
I don't mind paying for my parent's, or for family that needs help, but why should I be forced to pay for somebody else that can't or won't take care of their debts and obligations themselves?
I don't see anything in the Constitution or founding documents that say the government should provide for all the needs or desires of the citizens.
This is the underlying reason why I and others see the late 19th century as having advantages over the current times.
I take care of my own, it's called personal responsibility, and if everybody followed that, we wouldn't need to have a lot of the corporate infrastructure you despise, or the overwhelming nanny state government I don't trust.
When people are completely provided for by the state, they are dependent on the state for their basic existence, and are powerless against the state.
Hence my question, why move from a place that has everything you dream of to a place that doesn't?
Obviously, I came here to annoy YOU! To bring you to a point where you reduce the debate to personal attacks and show your true self
Yeah...we had a fella here by the name of LordyLordy that was doing that very thing...got rid of him...was peaceful hereabouts for awhile...now all hell's broke loose again...
Not an attack, just curious as you seem to have a visceral dislike for the US, but you emmigrated here voluntarily.
I did mention the nordic socialist countries as well in my question.
I do not have a visceral dislike - how silly. Would it make any difference if I told you I was John, born and raised in South Dakota?
I have told you the Nordic countries are capitalist.
Let me ask you this - do you think it is American to have such a huge lobby system with so much money in it that the people are getting shafted and the corporations and a handful of rich people are making a killing? Are you OK with a company keeping billions of dollars overseas just to avoid taxation here? Do you think that is patriotic? Esp. after we saw all the jobs go overseas? Is it OK for the government to guarantee student loans when all this does is feed the already rich universities all the while enslaving whole generations of kids?
Hey the last one and the healthcare thing are on the agenda of our President - do you question his patriotism as well?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSilvertip
It just strikes me as unusual that a person who is already in a place where they already have all the things you deem "worthy" would move to a place with none of those things.
I think you are confusing things.
There are many Americans who travel overseas and see what life is like in Germany or France. They may not agree with everything there but they may not agree with everything here either. Do you question their loyalty and patriotism also?
There is no perfect place. But, we can all work to make a place better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSilvertip
You enjoy attacking folks that want to provide for themselves including taking care of their own medical bills and education without government interference, or being forced at gunpoint to pay for others care, so it begs the question, why leave the socialist utopia of Europe to come to a land you appear to despise?
Why should it matter to you that Nor'Eastah or I worked through college and paid for it instead of partying and chasing women? We, invested our time so we wouldn't have student loans chasing us the rest of our lives.
I did the same thing (work through college, not party and chase women). This goes against the very idea of a University and academic experience. If many other countries can do it - tell me - why can't we?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSilvertip
I for one don't go the sawbones unless there's no other choice, but when I do, I have catastrophic insurance and for other issues I pay cash.
I don't mind paying for my parent's, or for family that needs help, but why should I be forced to pay for somebody else that can't or won't take care of their debts and obligations themselves?
I don't see anything in the Constitution or founding documents that say the government should provide for all the needs or desires of the citizens.
This is the underlying reason why I and others see the late 19th century as having advantages over the current times.
I take care of my own, it's called personal responsibility, and if everybody followed that, we wouldn't need to have a lot of the corporate infrastructure you despise, or the overwhelming nanny state government I don't trust.
When people are completely provided for by the state, they are dependent on the state for their basic existence, and are powerless against the state.
I like many things about the States - the individualism, the opportunity, the people. Even when I debate you or Nor' - I do not dislike you - I actually quite enjoy wrestling with you (with words of course).
I am "self made" - no family to push me, no connections, no nothing. I understand what you are saying. But, I also understand that the system can be stacked against a whole bunch of people, measured in the millions. There is nothing wrong with providing universal healthcare or free education - this is just my opinion/experience.
Let me ask you this - I pay property taxes in my county and I have no children. Most of the taxes go to the school system - the "breeders" have 2, 3, 4 and more children whom I am effectively sponsoring. Is that fair? Nope. But I take the "hit" because I want to live amongst an "educated" citizenry. What is the difference between paying for someone's basic education vs. college?
I think STATE colleges should be free. I think PRIVATE colleges should be "pay for". Who wins today with the loan system? The sharks and the universities, that's who.
The sooner we see the majority of the population with a quality college education, the better. All the other competing countries are doing it and we are getting left behind. I am not saying this out of "visceral dislike" but out of genuine concern. Why should China be better in 20 years?
What is the single largest obstacle to people leaving boring jobs and pursuing their own dreams? Yup, you guessed it - lack of healthcare insurance/coverage.... We got to fix these in order for this country to move forward. Again, you can take this as "visceral dislike" but I think you know it is not...
What I have a "visceral dislike" for is dishonesty and spreading misinformation....
Why can't the people who wish to have political discussions take their arguments to Politics and Other Controversies? It's obvious that ognend as well as another Democrat, a new and unneeded arrival, would prefer a forum devoted to government assistance since that seems to be the sort of world they wish.
There is even a thread that ognend started just to decry the eighties. Democrats today seem to have no ability to do anything but denounce their betters. The little men of 1880 had no means of affecting the world as a whole when they spewed their filth. Would that that were so today!
We had another little man a few days ago who claimed to be a historian. Curious, I looked at a few of his other posts. I immediately saw one in which he said that he made $10.50 per hour.
I do admit that we lacked good potters in 1880. Bathroom fixtures were steel and would remain that way for most of the next twenty years. Surprisingly, wood sometimes found uses. I was once in a restroom in an old business buidling. The wall-mounted toilet tank which was probably seventy-five years old at the time, early sixties, was made of wood. Neither it nor its brass pull chain was unattractive.
Steel plumbing fixtures seem not to have survived, but there may be some objects of interest at this dealer's website. I try to find sources of interesting products used in the home and office of 1880. These are for sale.
I do not have a visceral dislike - how silly. Would it make any difference if I told you I was John, born and raised in South Dakota?
Sure, then you would probably like this country, but not the government
I have told you the Nordic countries are capitalist.
Still doesn't change the fact they are socialist in practice.
Let me ask you this - do you think it is American to have such a huge lobby system with so much money in it that the people are getting shafted and the corporations and a handful of rich people are making a killing? Are you OK with a company keeping billions of dollars overseas just to avoid taxation here? Do you think that is patriotic? Esp. after we saw all the jobs go overseas? Is it OK for the government to guarantee student loans when all this does is feed the already rich universities all the while enslaving whole generations of kids?
The first amendment guarentees free speech, so anytime you write a letter or speak to your representative, guess what? You are now a lobbyist!!!
Hey the last one and the healthcare thing are on the agenda of our President - do you question his patriotism as well?
Yes
I think you are confusing things.
There are many Americans who travel overseas and see what life is like in Germany or France. They may not agree with everything there but they may not agree with everything here either. Do you question their loyalty and patriotism also?
If they move there and become citizens or resident aliens and then spend all their time deriding the system they chose to move to, then yes I would.
There is no perfect place. But, we can all work to make a place better.
Just as long as it meets your personal views right?
I did the same thing (work through college, not party and chase women). This goes against the very idea of a University and academic experience. If many other countries can do it - tell me - why can't we?
That is the university experience, although I left out the rampant drug use.
I like many things about the States - the individualism, the opportunity, the people. Even when I debate you or Nor' - I do not dislike you - I actually quite enjoy wrestling with you (with words of course).
Those things are the antithesis of socialism
I am "self made" - no family to push me, no connections, no nothing. I understand what you are saying. But, I also understand that the system can be stacked against a whole bunch of people, measured in the millions. There is nothing wrong with providing universal healthcare or free education - this is just my opinion/experience.
Let me ask you this - I pay property taxes in my county and I have no children. Most of the taxes go to the school system - the "breeders" have 2, 3, 4 and more children whom I am effectively sponsoring. Is that fair? Nope. But I take the "hit" because I want to live amongst an "educated" citizenry. What is the difference between paying for someone's basic education vs. college?
I don't have kids either, but then I can refrain from calling people with kids derogitory names.
There is nothing in the Constitution about national education so there should be no federal oversight. Public schools only benefit the teachers unions.
I would vastly prefer schools from the 1880's where parent's with kids directly paid the teacher, the teachers was boarded in the parent's homes. All Classes were taught in a one room school, and the kids got a far better education in many respects than they do today. GOING TO SCHOOL IN PIONEER DAYS
I think STATE colleges should be free. I think PRIVATE colleges should be "pay for". Who wins today with the loan system? The sharks and the universities, that's who.
If you had a functioning education system, university is only for Doctors/Lawyers etc. not for the regular person as they would already have a good foundational education.
College is a money dump, a diploma mill that means nothing when regarding a persons abilities. It just means they went through and paid a lot of money.
Specialty licenses are where you can ascertain if somebody knows something about a particular subject.
Blue Collar jobs don't require a $50,000 sheepskin to work a factory line or ring up totals on a cash register.
You don't need a PHD to work on a car or build a house or plumb or wire.
Making college free just means more people that don't have any abilities or talents can still waste another 4 years on the dole instead of working for a living.
The sooner we see the majority of the population with a quality college education, the better. All the other competing countries are doing it and we are getting left behind. I am not saying this out of "visceral dislike" but out of genuine concern. Why should China be better in 20 years?
Another socialist utopia. The "people's" revolution meant that China was 40 years behind the rest of the world.
The people only get to do what the government says they can do.
What is the single largest obstacle to people leaving boring jobs and pursuing their own dreams? Yup, you guessed it - lack of healthcare insurance/coverage.... We got to fix these in order for this country to move forward. Again, you can take this as "visceral dislike" but I think you know it is not...
What I have a "visceral dislike" for is dishonesty and spreading misinformation....
No, the biggest obstical is motivation and the willingness to take a chance or do the amount of work necessary to actually bring a business or opportunity to life.
It's much easier to gripe about your current job and do the bare minimum of effort. Healthcare is just another excuse for not doing anything that disrupts buying a new toy or missing that football game.
Those that thrive and excel know that they have to sacrifice time and buying whatever new plasma TV or smartphone, and instead invest and work for a better life.
That is one of the reasons the late 1800's are a great time. People believed they could get ahead by their own efforts, they didn't have to rely on permission from the government, or ask for start up money from the government, or get a fistfull of licenses and permits, they just did it.
Win lose or draw, they held their own destiny in their hands.
That is one of the reasons the late 1800's are a great time. People believed they could get ahead by their own efforts, they didn't have to rely on permission from the government, or ask for start up money from the government, or get a fistfull of licenses and permits, they just did it.
Win lose or draw, they held their own destiny in their hands.
A much better situation than we have now by far.
Man, you can say that again!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSilvertip
A much better situation than we have now by far.
Yep.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
