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I've looked around and read up fairly intensively about homesteading and have come to what I consider firm conclusions...The whys to follow..
1. Off the Grid is idealistic and plain silly as an objective..
Cost is everything and failure is not an option...That solar,generator,dig a well stuff is costly and time consuming,also it's money that is diverted away from a log splitter and crop equipment. Better to wean off the grid and keep the utilities as a back up for emergencies. Not saying not to get some solar/wind/hudro solutions up and running,,just that that's something to do when things settle down. Rural is rural and even folks who run grid electricty have a back up generator because lines always go down and takes time for the lights to come back on...Ask any 3d world person and they'd sell their soul for grid electricity.....
2. Rural is rural,,the same from state to state what is different is growing seasons and heating seasons. Homestead where the soil is good,the growing season long.
3. Canning food and root cellars have their place but so do large chest freezers and that's not going to happen off grid....
Romantic ideas can lose their luster pretty fast when put into reality.
Your going to get older if your lucky and will have to get your mind and body in sync as time go's by..In short,your not going to be able to chop those 5 cords of wood to get thru the winter at some point,,,That's life.
I don't mean to be a dream slayer,,just stressing that a lot of thought has to go into homesteading.
I'd bet a bundle that folks who crash and burn in their forage into homesteading thought off grid was a good idea and found out it was the main reason their dream was crushed...
I do agree that attempting to go off-grid and start a new homestead at the same time can be extremely problematic and can play a contributing factor to delays and burnout.
If you already have a bunch of RE equipment, then you might make it ok. But needing to get all that set up and running while you're also trying to construction and land-management can overstress many. By the time any of the major homestead projects are done, you're looking at replacing house batteries and have probably already replaced a generator or two.
We needed to replace a chainsaw, a generator, and new/different house batteries by the time we got our cabin completed. That was $5000 that could have gone into the barn or greenhouse. There is no grid out here, so it wasn't an option; but if someone was looking to homestead where a grid hookup wasn't too expensive, I'd definitely recommend it. Get yourself set up and slowly wean off the grid and onto RE.
As far as I know, the only state where homestead lands are available is Alaska. In the rest of the country people buy what they like or what they can afford, presumably the most satisfactory combination they can manage. Most of us have little or no need for a power or telecommunications grid. I need teleccommunications for business; some need it because of real or imagined medical problems. It does not, however, require that much power.
I bought my present home rather than build it as I liked the location; I also didn't need to deal with a variety of tradesmen as I would if I had built it. Obviously, I'm on the grid, but I'm doing my best to make as little use of it as possible. Since solar and wind power require as much or more in the way of sophisticated electronics than the line from from the power company, I've rejected them. I do have a water windmill and am looking for a good compressed air system for another windmill; compressed air is an overlooked but effective source of power. Power need not be electric. Stoves, refrigerators, tractors, and other equipment can use fuels such as drip gas, propane, coal, and wood. Not every fuel can be used in every piece of equipment. Small steam engines are useful for belt operation. Oil lamps provide adequate lighting for almost every task. When it's necessary to have electricity for something specific a battery bank of simple batteries made at home is sufficient. Since the internet is so useful for rapid acquisition of information some grid reliance is worthwhile, but there must be backup. Futhermore the internet cannot replace a physical reference library. The ''tiny house'' crew will never make it; they have no books.
The first step in moving off-grid and entering the realm of self-sufficiency is to make money. It may take ten years or forty to get enough, but without it there's neither freedom nor flexibility. The fifty year old sedentary but intelligent and well-read couple with five million dollars is far more likely to find a pleasant life than the muscled and energetic twenty-five year olds who can't be bothered reading. No one without intellectual curiosity, without the ability to seek and see new solutions can succeed without blind luck. We should all be prepared to take advantage of a good run of luck, but we can't wait for it to happen or rely upon it in any way.
Every year tens, perhaps hundreds, of thousands come to the western states with a desire for a life away from the herd. If they have either money and intelligence on one hand or a willingness to live a hard and primitive life on the other hand (the latter is a very rare breed; most are sociopaths who are more than willing to ride the outlaw trail and who have often seen the insides of prisons) they'll probably make it; few of the ''poor but honest'' will.
I think we're using homesteading in two different contexts. There's the legal definition - yours. But the modern definition is more about being as self-sufficient as possible on your land - that's the definition I'm using.
If you're starting out on raw land or underdeveloped/overgrown/outdated, it's helpful if you at least have a power hookup and hopefully a decent internet-capable cell service nearby. Not critical, but definitely helpful. Especially if you don't have any/much experience with rural/remote living.
Our place is somewhere beyond the butt-end of nowhere, no grid power or land phone, and the nearest cell service is an hour away up the mountain standing just so with a wire hanger and tinfoil, you can get maybe 2 bars. We have satellite internet for nearly everything... it's expensive and seriously limited & limiting for a lot of things. Being that remote and/or off-grid is something you need to plan for and be aware of, and it can still mess up the most careful of budgets and plans.
I think we're using homesteading in two different contexts. There's the legal definition - yours. But the modern definition is more about being as self-sufficient as possible on your land - that's the definition I'm using.
In that case, why not just call it a self-sufficient or survivalist lifestyle? But, of course, we must always adopt the appropriate euphemism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissingAll4Seasons
If you're starting out on raw land or underdeveloped/overgrown/outdated, it's helpful if you at least have a power hookup and hopefully a decent internet-capable cell service nearby. Not critical, but definitely helpful. Especially if you don't have any/much experience with rural/remote living.
Of course, it's helpful, but it's not living independently. To the extent that we use the grid, we're making ourselves dependent upon civilization. We need to make our relationship with the grid, in the inclusive sense, voluntary. If we depend on it for basic necessities we're no better than the people sitting on the curb in New Orleans waiting for government rescue. The grid encompasses far more than the government, but it encourages dependence. The time to aquire knowledge is before we encounter the real situation. That means doing it in a safe suburban home or protected environment before we strike out. It's rather late to learn how to knapp an obsidian knife while sitting in rain changing to snow and unable to identify obsidian. It's also rather late to learn to make money independently for someone who has always worked for someone else but will need more money to live. Few ''homesteaders'', actual or would-be, are willing to do so much as to buy and read Carla Emery' almost encyclopedic tome. Of course, few are ever willing to do anything beyond availing themselves of cheap and senseless entertainment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissingAll4Seasons
Our place is somewhere beyond the butt-end of nowhere, no grid power or land phone, and the nearest cell service is an hour away up the mountain standing just so with a wire hanger and tinfoil, you can get maybe 2 bars. We have satellite internet for nearly everything... it's expensive and seriously limited & limiting for a lot of things. Being that remote and/or off-grid is something you need to plan for and be aware of, and it can still mess up the most careful of budgets and plans.
You've disconnected more than I have. But think back just a few years: no one had a cell phone or the internet. Then think back a century or two. People in the back country simply didn't communicate with outsiders and often had no neighbors. Trading trips were likely yearly events. The reason back country folks got their reputation as moonshiners was because they had no way to get their corn to market over trails that were only wide enough for a horse. The corn that a few pack horses could carry would have paid for nothing, but the whiskey a few pack horses could carry would support a family for a year. Trade was originally limited to luxury goods. Backwoodsmen have always been able to find luxury goods. Whiskey, gold, copper, and gems were some of the first. Not surprisingly, the same items have fulfilled that role for thousands of years.
In June, we moved to northern Maine, to a 33-acre rural property that we purchased a couple of years ago when I retired. My wife and I had spent all of our married life in Rhode Island, a state we considered to be crowded, polluted, noisy and politically corrupt -- not to mention expensive and over-taxed. Last summer, 2 male relatives and I built an 1120 sq ft ranch with bunkhouse on the Maine acreage, and that is where I am living now. I bought the land for cash, and cash-flowed all the building materials. We do not believe in mortgages or any kind of debt, in retirement. We had saved for many years for this. In a nutshell, we 'bought' our freedom.
Originally we had wanted at least 50 acres, but we had to go farther north and settle for the 33 acres, which is a really nice property, but is off the grid. We don't live off-grid due to 'idealism' or environmental concerns, but a mix of reality and affordability. We felt it was better to buy a parcel for cash (even if there was no power nearby) than to buy a more expensive property with debt.
So far it is working out well. We have lights, refrigeration, a 6' chest freezer (why do people assume you can't have one, when off-grid?), hot and cold running water, flush toilets, even A/C for limited time slots, which is rarely needed up here. We will be heating with wood, which I can still cut, but at any rate cordwood is plentiful and affordable up here. We have a propane back-up heating system.
More than anything else, being off-grid means being able to manage your power usage. We can use the microwave, but not at the same time that the water heater is on (ours is on a timer). We can use a generator for A/C, but not at the same time as the washing machine is running. It's a simple trade-off, and in no way are we over-stressed or deprived. We ARE more conscious of our power usage. As time goes by, we learn better management practices. Also, solar and battery gear is not nearly as expensive as some folks think it is. They get that idea from city-bred salesman who are out to sell large solar arrays to people who are ON the grid. That's just a rip-off, most of the time.
We sure don't miss those $150 monthly utility bills!
... a 6' chest freezer (why do people assume you can't have one, when off-grid?)
We have a chest freezer, not that big because it's just the two of us, but still big enough. It's DC/AC switchable, can run on full-blast with just two 60w PV panels with a 12v car battery for backup. Refrigerators are actually harder than freezers because they stay warmer and cycle the compressor more often, but they're doable if you plan for them.
Now, you might not be able to go out and buy the cheapest AC freezer at Home Labrynth, but a freezer off-grid is totally manageable.
I've looked around and read up fairly intensively about homesteading and have come to what I consider firm conclusions...The whys to follow..
I don't think you have actually thought the below conclusions through
Quote:
Originally Posted by USAGeorge
1. Off the Grid is idealistic and plain silly as an objective..
Cost is everything and failure is not an option...That solar,generator,dig a well stuff is costly and time consuming,also it's money that is diverted away from a log splitter and crop equipment. Better to wean off the grid and keep the utilities as a back up for emergencies. Not saying not to get some solar/wind/hudro solutions up and running,,just that that's something to do when things settle down. Rural is rural and even folks who run grid electricty have a back up generator because lines always go down and takes time for the lights to come back on...Ask any 3d world person and they'd sell their soul for grid electricity.....
Today homesteading, off-grid, whatever you want to call it is a matter of financial preparedness or pure necessity, depending on where you are in your life. It is a thing of the very poor or a thing of the very wealthy. You should NOT consider going off grid or homesteading if you live in the city and have student loans, a mortgage and auto-loans, in addition to credit card debt (about 80-90% of all Americans have at least 3 out of the 4?).
Why? You should instead focus on paying off all your debt, NOT incurring any more debt and then saving a lot of money.
After you have paid off the debt, look around your area (50-100 mile radius from the city you live in, out in the country) and find a piece of land you can pay cash for. Then while you still live in your city apartment, you can start prepping your to-be homestead by buying your solar, in cash, and installing it yourself over a weekend or two. Then maybe you can have a shipping container or two delivered to your land. 6-12 months later, your homestead is ready and is off-grid.
It is impossible to do EVERYTHING (build house, install solar, tend to livestock, gardens, fencing etc.) if you just move to a piece of land and want to have a job in town (or from home) that will effectively take up 8-9 hours a day. Well, I should not say impossible, I should say - highly unlikely to succeed. The stress is too high.
This is why I started out by saying it only works for people who are very poor (and have no other choice but to grow a garden etc.) or well to do and can pay their way through a lot of the above work.
The problem is, a lot of people are in a situation where they want to have a homestead tomorrow, they take out a mortgage and they keep that full-time job and then they have to do all the things at once, solar, garden, livestock, etc. etc. etc.
I will also address your remark about the costs: it is all in the eye of the beholder. Being attached to a grid has its costs (monthly bills but more so, the dependence - that new freezer you are proposing instead of the root cellar, well, if power goes down or if it breaks down all your stuff will rot). For some like me, the environmental factors are also extremely important - we simply do not want to be a part of a cooked and dirty energy and food system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by USAGeorge
2. Rural is rural,,the same from state to state what is different is growing seasons and heating seasons. Homestead where the soil is good,the growing season long.
Yes, however - you could homestead in almost any area. A garden for a family of four is not that big and you can always hunt your meat - even the Chihuahuan desert of Big Bend TX has a hunting season on audad and javelina. If you have a well, chances are, you can support a garden. There is also sotol in the area, cactus etc. that you can eat. I am not saying that we should all move to the desert to homestead - likely you would not be 100% self-sufficient - you need to be realistic, what % of self-sufficiency makes you OK with it. I think we all agree 100% is impossible unless it is a colony or a village of willing individuals who all barter and trade their produce and skills with each other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by USAGeorge
3. Canning food and root cellars have their place but so do large chest freezers and that's not going to happen off grid....
Why not? I think you may be a bit confused about some things. What's not going to happen off grid? If you have solar or wind electricity, you can have a freezer. You can also have a root cellar, my grandparents did
Quote:
Originally Posted by USAGeorge
Romantic ideas can lose their luster pretty fast when put into reality.
This depends on how you are doing your path. If you do it as I described above, you will be happy. If you try to cram it all on and you are burning through your savings faster than you can spell "off grid" and you have to have a 8-10 hr job a day to keep supporting your work WHILE you are working on the homestead, yeah, you will burn out pretty quickly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by USAGeorge
Your going to get older if your lucky and will have to get your mind and body in sync as time go's by..In short,your not going to be able to chop those 5 cords of wood to get thru the winter at some point,,,That's life.
Bulls*it, sorry . I know quite a few older people in their 70s, 80s and 90s who can probably outwork me. See, they did not spend their best years sitting behind a computer 12-14 hours a day and buried in their iPhone and eating "those things that pass for food in the grocery store" laced with high-fructose corn syrup and chemicals you cannot even pronounce today all day. We keep fighting all these wars on drugs when we should turn to the food industry and take a long, hard look at what is in the food - I guarantee you - it kills and makes ill far more people than marijuana ever will, not to mention the costs imposed on the medical system - the savings would be more than enough to pay for everyone in the country to have free healthcare.
Quote:
Originally Posted by USAGeorge
I don't mean to be a dream slayer,,just stressing that a lot of thought has to go into homesteading.
I'd bet a bundle that folks who crash and burn in their forage into homesteading thought off grid was a good idea and found out it was the main reason their dream was crushed...
Only the people who did not plan their journey. Unfortunately, the culture today is all about NOW, GIMME GIMME (!) instead of taking your time, coming up with a plan and executing it. I blame the education system - we are producing drones instead of people who have abilities to form strategies (higher level reasoning) and think and execute their way through those strategies. I also blame the food people eat - it is near impossible to have healthy higher mental and cognitive functions when you are high/low on the stuff in the food all day.
One final note: the reason NOBODY tells you about the strategy I outlined above (pay off your debts, save the money, buy near your city, go slow) is because NOBODY would want to read a book that starts with: "Homesteading will only work and be fun IF YOU ARE DEBT FREE AND HAVE MONEY SAVED". Why? 'Cause 90% of the audience would put the book or magazine down after the initial sentence and take it back to the seller - Americans are laden with debt and most are indentured servants to the bank. Some do not like that status of a servant to the bank and they think that going to the country to homestead will somehow free them (like the ostrich with the head in the sand?). The truth is, the debt will follow you everywhere and staying in the city will allow you the opportunity to have better paying jobs to pay off the debt.
Going off-grid. homesteading, being green is a HUGE industry. Ask yourself why most articles you see in Mother Earth news or most books on the topic NEVER start with telling you how the 4 person family acquired the 40-acre rural Wisconsin homestead and HOW they paid for the solar and HOW they supported themselves for the 1-2 years it took for the coop or the artisanal cheese business to start making ANY profit. The answer is, they most likely did what I outlined above - they had city jobs, no debt, sold a super expensive condo in Chicago or NYC or any other city and they used some of the proceeds to pay cash for the new homestead and now they have a comfy cushion in the bank to support them on their new journey. With that kind of a setup your off-grid project is going to be fun and games, stress free and you will LOVE the country, I promise!
Last edited by LordyLordy; 09-30-2014 at 06:57 AM..
So far it is working out well. We have lights, refrigeration, a 6' chest freezer (why do people assume you can't have one, when off-grid?), hot and cold running water, flush toilets, even A/C for limited time slots, which is rarely needed up here. We will be heating with wood, which I can still cut, but at any rate cordwood is plentiful and affordable up here. We have a propane back-up heating system.
More than anything else, being off-grid means being able to manage your power usage. We can use the microwave, but not at the same time that the water heater is on (ours is on a timer). We can use a generator for A/C, but not at the same time as the washing machine is running. It's a simple trade-off, and in no way are we over-stressed or deprived. We ARE more conscious of our power usage. As time goes by, we learn better management practices. Also, solar and battery gear is not nearly as expensive as some folks think it is. They get that idea from city-bred salesman who are out to sell large solar arrays to people who are ON the grid. That's just a rip-off, most of the time.
We sure don't miss those $150 monthly utility bills!
The fact that you're using solar makes me wonder if I should consider it for some applications, After all, the sun is already there. I'm wondering how reliable the solar panels are and how many years a battery bank lasts. I know that I've asked two questions that would require several books to answer, but I wonder if you have any thoughts or ideas for books. Since I'm stuck with modern appliances for phone and computer I suppose it wouldn't matter if I were using a modern solar setup.
I'm particularly concerned with reliability of solar panels and connections as well as the life expectancy of batteries.
The fact that you're using solar makes me wonder if I should consider it for some applications, After all, the sun is already there. I'm wondering how reliable the solar panels are and how many years a battery bank lasts. I know that I've asked two questions that would require several books to answer, but I wonder if you have any thoughts or ideas for books. Since I'm stuck with modern appliances for phone and computer I suppose it wouldn't matter if I were using a modern solar setup.
I'm particularly concerned with reliability of solar panels and connections as well as the life expectancy of batteries.
For solar cells, the life is 20 - 40 years. However, the panels can have a protective covering which may occlude with age and become less effective, (mostly the solar heat systems that heat liquid for heating a home or office). Those aren't hard to replace which is good as they can also be shattered by hail.
Overall, from what I have been exposed to in the field, if you have clouding it will probably be in the 10-15 year range before you would need to change them.
The battery banks normally have an estimated lifecyle of 5 years. Some will go far more than that, some a lot less, but usually the batteries are rated for 5 years. Mostly that is dependent on the cycle and if you fully discharge instead of maintaining a charge. The batteries will develop a memory same as your cell phone, so if you fully discharge your battery will have a longer life than if you discharge to say 80% before recharging.
The inverters normally will last about 10 years as an average, but depending on the brand and other factors, some may last much longer, some much less.
Solar cells are reliable, but their production is based on how much sunlight you get. Even with a good system, it's prudent to have a generator backup.
One of the best books I have found on this subject is by Jeff Yago, an engineer with extensive experience in solar systems and design.
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