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Old 07-01-2015, 07:29 AM
 
1,344 posts, read 3,388,081 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ognend View Post
Judging by his own description of his own state of mind, I doubt that having a gun would have changed anything besides possibly the OP shooting himself in the adrenaline infused shaking and fear for his life. There are quite a few scenarios where having the gun would have been detrimental to him or those around him.
The part that changes is that when you have a gun with you, you're not shaking for your life (or shouldn't be). Is your adrenaline flowing. Absolutely. Once your comfortable and properly trained with your weapon, you'll have the confidence needed where you shouldn't be shaking and fearful of your life.
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Old 07-01-2015, 08:38 AM
 
Location: Milwaukee, WI
3,367 posts, read 2,853,163 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanR View Post
Once your comfortable and properly trained with your weapon, you'll have the confidence needed where you shouldn't be shaking and fearful of your life.
Owning a gun doesn't make you invincible, those attackers could have guns as well, you know
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Old 07-01-2015, 09:05 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanR View Post
The part that changes is that when you have a gun with you, you're not shaking for your life (or shouldn't be). Is your adrenaline flowing. Absolutely. Once your comfortable and properly trained with your weapon, you'll have the confidence needed where you shouldn't be shaking and fearful of your life.
The part that changes is that you hold someone's life in the balance now. You may feel threatened at the moment but it may turn out you "crapped your pants" and pulled the trigger when there was no real danger also. In that case you murdered someone - not an easy thing to live with (and there will be legal action taken against you). Not saying guns don't have their place but a lot of people get one and besides knowing how to pull the trigger - they have no real preparation for what it means to take someone's life or even handle yourself while using the gun to do so.

Now, the question remains: what would the OP have done differently if they had a gun? This is the question that would be nice to hear the OP answer.
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Old 07-01-2015, 10:20 AM
 
1,344 posts, read 3,388,081 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brrabbit View Post
Owning a gun doesn't make you invincible, those attackers could have guns as well, you know
Exactly why I pointed out early in the thread that a baseball bat doesn't do you any good if they have guns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ognend View Post
The part that changes is that you hold someone's life in the balance now. You may feel threatened at the moment but it may turn out you "crapped your pants" and pulled the trigger when there was no real danger also. In that case you murdered someone - not an easy thing to live with (and there will be legal action taken against you). Not saying guns don't have their place but a lot of people get one and besides knowing how to pull the trigger - they have no real preparation for what it means to take someone's life or even handle yourself while using the gun to do so.

Now, the question remains: what would the OP have done differently if they had a gun? This is the question that would be nice to hear the OP answer.
I'm not disagreeing that there's a lot of responsibility owning, handling and choosing when to use a firearm (especially against people).

Had I been in the OP's shoes, I would take evasive steps and wouldn't entice a gun fight. I was saying that being armed yourself is a great equalizer.
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Old 07-01-2015, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Where the mountains touch the sky
6,743 posts, read 8,516,208 times
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Some folks think it's better to be a victim than defend yourself.

Of course, not having the means to defend yourself will mean you won't come up on charges, you'll probably be dead, I guess that's better in some folk's minds.

The choice is simple, either learn to protect yourself and your family by learning how to handle a weapon, martial arts, carry pepper spray, whatever, or you can be a victim. Simple.
Yes, you'll be scared in a life or death situaton, so what? You either protect yourself or your family will get to choose a nice casket for you.

The OP handled the situation as well as he could under the circumstances. He tried to call for assistance, and found out that won't normally happen unless he were to drive into the parking lot of Dunkin' Donuts maybe where he could find some cops.

The police have been deamonized in the press for the last year to the point that unless they have no choice, they won't respond due to legal issues, so that means since we now have anarchy in many cities, you better take care of yourself or you will be just SOL lying on the side of the road either savagely beaten, raped, or dead.

Coddling criminals only leads to empowering criminals, and that's what's been happening for far too long. Their rights are protected at the expense of the law abiding.

The only choices are still: Fight back or be another statistic on the 6:00 news.

If someone is theatening my life or my family, I'd be happy to go in front of a judge, and if I had to do some time, at least I'd be alive to do it.
I refuse to be a victim. I saw too many graves of pacifists or people without means to protect themselves all over the world.

It won't happen to me if I have any choice in the matter, and I do, so I take steps to provide protection for the folks I care about.
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Old 07-01-2015, 11:19 AM
 
Location: Milwaukee, WI
3,367 posts, read 2,853,163 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSilvertip View Post
Some folks think it's better to be a victim than defend yourself.
The choice is not that easy really. The choice as I see it, to
- either defend myself with force (which if done a bit too early, or a little bit incorrectly, or if I'm just unlucky - would lead to the end of my life as I know it, put me in definitely worse environment and bring more physical damage to me over time)

- or try to run away, etc, but be a victim (which might lead to my premature death, or might lead to nothing).

So, it's a choice between two evils. I carry a gun most of the time and I will use it if I have to, but probably at the bad breath distance and not before that.
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Old 07-01-2015, 11:40 AM
 
813 posts, read 596,546 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ognend View Post
Then there is the thing about having the gun around the house with your kids etc. Someone said they grew up around them and they were fine. Sure. But statistics say otherwise....
I'm interested in seeing the statistics on gun-owning households with children, please post a link if you have one.

I live in an area where the majority of households have weapons, and I seldom hear of a child being hurt with a gun.

Update: Found it on my own. The CDC says there were 103 accidental deaths of children by guns under the age of 18 last year out of about 100 million gun owning households. Too many for sure, but not significant on a statistical basis.

Thanks, Rg

Last edited by raggedjim; 07-01-2015 at 11:51 AM..
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Old 07-01-2015, 12:26 PM
 
2,878 posts, read 4,614,747 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSilvertip View Post
Some folks think it's better to be a victim than defend yourself.
It is a very fine line these days between defending yourself and killing someone as a result of a bad judgment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSilvertip View Post
The choice is simple, either learn to protect yourself and your family by learning how to handle a weapon, martial arts, carry pepper spray, whatever, or you can be a victim. Simple.
Your initial response was to recommend getting a gun. You said "better be judged by 12 than carried by 6". That's different than what you are saying above. Sure, you can kill a man with a baseball bat or even bare hands. However, to kill someone with a bat or hands - it is a long process. If you are a normal person, you will hit once or twice to incapacitate and that's about it. To kill someone with a gun is a few calories it takes to pull the trigger and it is terminal - no coming back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSilvertip View Post
Yes, you'll be scared in a life or death situaton, so what? You either protect yourself or your family will get to choose a nice casket for you.
Yes but you have to be in a life or death situation first. Sounds me to like OP was badly shaken and scared. However, he managed to get out of the harm's way without a gun. Even when the two perps exited the vehicle - he ran with his car. Had he had a gun - he may have shot them both and it may have easily been the case that they were unarmed. In that case, the OP could have easily ended up with a murder charge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSilvertip View Post
The police have been deamonized in the press for the last year to the point that unless they have no choice, they won't respond due to legal issues, so that means since we now have anarchy in many cities, you better take care of yourself or you will be just SOL lying on the side of the road either savagely beaten, raped, or dead.

Coddling criminals only leads to empowering criminals, and that's what's been happening for far too long. Their rights are protected at the expense of the law abiding.

The only choices are still: Fight back or be another statistic on the 6:00 news.
Talk about over reaction. The world is not black and white. There are many choices between killing someone and running away with no dignity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSilvertip View Post
If someone is theatening my life or my family, I'd be happy to go in front of a judge, and if I had to do some time, at least I'd be alive to do it.
Well, it is easy to be an armchair advisor. Going in front of a judge on a murder charge is no joke. If you end up being convicted, you will be in a very bad place for decades.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSilvertip View Post
I refuse to be a victim. I saw too many graves of pacifists or people without means to protect themselves all over the world.
Ganhdi was a pacifist. He brought down an empire. No, I am not comparing British empire to some loser chasing you down in a car but the point is - there are always options. Yes, a gun is an option - usually a terminal one - for someone.

In the 1800s you could shoot a man, claim self defense and be let off the hook easily. This is not the 1800s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSilvertip View Post
It won't happen to me if I have any choice in the matter, and I do, so I take steps to provide protection for the folks I care about.
How bold - good for you
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Old 07-01-2015, 12:44 PM
 
Location: Milwaukee, WI
3,367 posts, read 2,853,163 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ognend View Post
Ganhdi was a pacifist.
Not exactly,

"I do believe that where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence I would advise violence.
I advocate training in arms for those who believe in the method of violence. I would rather have India resort to arms in order to defend her honor than that she should in a cowardly manner become or remain a helpless witness to her own dishonor." Gandhi from "The Doctrine Of The Sword"

Also this - "It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our breasts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. Violence is any day preferable to impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent. " 27 years later...
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Old 07-01-2015, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Where the mountains touch the sky
6,743 posts, read 8,516,208 times
Reputation: 14928
Quote:
Originally Posted by ognend View Post
It is a very fine line these days between defending yourself and killing someone as a result of a bad judgment.
Very easy when someone exhibits life threatening behavior as evidenced in the OP


Your initial response was to recommend getting a gun. You said "better be judged by 12 than carried by 6". That's different than what you are saying above. Sure, you can kill a man with a baseball bat or even bare hands. However, to kill someone with a bat or hands - it is a long process. If you are a normal person, you will hit once or twice to incapacitate and that's about it. To kill someone with a gun is a few calories it takes to pull the trigger and it is terminal - no coming back.

End result is the same, unless the opponent is armed and quickly puts a bullet through your skull and dives your car over your body still clutching your bat.

Yes but you have to be in a life or death situation first. Sounds me to like OP was badly shaken and scared. However, he managed to get out of the harm's way without a gun. Even when the two perps exited the vehicle - he ran with his car. Had he had a gun - he may have shot them both and it may have easily been the case that they were unarmed. In that case, the OP could have easily ended up with a murder charge.

Nothing indicates the results would have been different if the OP had been armed, however, if he hadn't been able to escape, being armed could spell the difference between life and death.


Talk about over reaction. The world is not black and white. There are many choices between killing someone and running away with no dignity.

OK, You run while your wife or someone you care about is savaged by some thug. You can be very proud of your non-violence and I'm sure they'll praise you from the hospital or grave.


Well, it is easy to be an armchair advisor. Going in front of a judge on a murder charge is no joke. If you end up being convicted, you will be in a very bad place for decades.

Is it as traumatic as watching someone you love being murdered/raped/beaten? If I chose your path and alowed that to happen, I would certainly be in a very bad place.


Ganhdi was a pacifist. He brought down an empire. No, I am not comparing British empire to some loser chasing you down in a car but the point is - there are always options. Yes, a gun is an option - usually a terminal one - for someone.

Reference Brrabbit's excellent post above. If some lowife wants to kill me, that is their option, my option is to prevent them from fulfilling their desire.

In the 1800s you could shoot a man, claim self defense and be let off the hook easily. This is not the 1800s.



How bold - good for you
No, liberal policies that promote crime have made a nation of sheep that are more afraid of the law and protecting themselves than the criminals.
You kow-tow to thugs if you want. I have different options.

How pathetic that there are those that advocate coddling criminals instead of supporting victims of crime.
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